HWPeeler (HPeeler)

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I didn't find one to answer my questions so I started one.

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Ancient cities, 9,000 BC?

Started Jul-4 by HWPeeler (HPeeler); 198 views.
HWPeeler (HPeeler)

From: HWPeeler (HPeeler)

Jul-4

Built around the border of Syria and Turkey of heavy stone work yet carbon dating puts it at about 9,500 BC. Intricate stone carving suggests metal tools.

Needless to say this is long before the bible dates the Garden of Eden or 7,000 years before the pyramids of Egypt. At this time we know of nobody other than small groups of hunter / gatherers, quite unlikely candidates to build in huge stone monuments. These people were unknown to us. Nothing has been reported that might support extraterrestrial cultures. They were just seven or eight thousand years ahead of others. The carvings they left behind gave us no indication of what they looked like.

Or is this an example of a huge error in carbon dating?

Today the area is barely able to sustain farming but ten or eleven thousand years ago it might have been a garden.

Vern (oldhippieguy)

From: Vern (oldhippieguy)

Jul-20

Interesting story.  I like this kind of 'stuff'.

Is there a link to the article?

HWPeeler (HPeeler)

From: HWPeeler (HPeeler)

Jul-20

I didn't note the link, sorry.

I ran across another headline that suggested the presence of people in California 130,000 years ago. Again, I didn't take it serious enough at the time to save a link.

Welcome to the forum.

(edited to add ...)

Humans in California 130,000 years ago

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/04/mastodons-americas-peopling-migrations-archaeology-science/

(quote from link ...)

In an announcement sure to spark a firestorm of controversy, researchers say they’ve found signs of ancient humans in California between 120,000 and 140,000 years ago—more than a hundred thousand years before humans were thought to exist anywhere in the Americas.

(end quote)

Travelled to America by water? At 130,000 BC? Over land maybe? Would this be before the last ice age that started maybe 110,000 years ago?

HWPeeler (HPeeler)

From: HWPeeler (HPeeler)

Jul-20

Gobekli tepe was the name of the place, I think. A link follows, but it is not the same one I originally found. Certainly interesting development for 9,000 BC. Hunter / gatherers don't normally build in stone like this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/turkey/articles/Gobekli-Tepe-Turkey-a-new-wonder-of-the-ancient-world/

So was it built by somebody earlier and just used as a market place in 9,000 BC. We can only date it by organic stuff left behind. It is difficult to date stone carving unless it actually tells us something.

Mind candy, certainly.

Vern (oldhippieguy)

From: Vern (oldhippieguy)

Jul-20

HWPeeler (HPeeler) said...

It is difficult to date stone carving unless it actually tells us something.

Kilroy was here 9,000 B.C.E.

 

RGoss99

From: RGoss99

Jul-20

Strange post considering that there is no reasonable way of determining dates from the pentateuch. All of the other Biblical stories that can be reasonably dated are based on other cultures that have reacted with the Hebrews.

Math problem if one accepts the carbon dting at 9,500 B.C.  how does one arrive at the garden of Eden with any dates.

The use of the word "city" is sort of an anachronism, since there is no applicable definition of such, beyound a post OT definition of an urbanization with a cathedral.  For example, in Scotland, Edinburgh is only a twon, while Elgin is a city, and St Andrews is a metropolis (mother city).

This is but one example as to how a city is defined. So when does a settlement become a city? Here are some possibilities: 1 a settlement which has trade and moves beyond beng self sufficient. 2. having walls, 3. has other urban attributes which require sufficient communal organization sufficient to supply common services such as a water supply.

Your use of agriculture or hunter gatherer, also does not work as there are many urban today which have grown and shrunk throughout their history. At one time, the entire population of Rome could have been housed within its colleseum.

"Heavy Stone work" unless one can define an area by such as to size is also not necessarily an indication. From where I live, there is a present village that has gone from stone age > Phoenician > Roman > Byzantine > Muslim > Christian, but the projected perimeter of its walls, stones larger then a VW Beetle, is less then half a football field. A little farther away "Ses Fornes", a prehistoric agricultural community, consisting of a collection of "talayots" each accomodating an extended family, consists of huge stone structures.

https://www.google.es/search?q=photo+ses+fornes&hl=es

Evidence suggests mixed agriculture, herding, and hunter-gatherer. Since it is about the center of the island, items of coastal origin suggest some trading economy. Judging by the photos above, I would hardly qualify it as a city - yet it meets several criteria for such.

In reply toRe: msg 7
RGoss99

From: RGoss99

Jul-20

To be honest, the overall plan, might be only half of the village, as it is on the side of a hill, which may well be covering an equal sized area.

Regarding walls as a criteria, Here is another one, about an hour by bike from my house.

https://www.google.es/search?q=ses+paisses+mallorca&hl=es&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR4pu11ZjVAhVSbVAKHY6eDgEQsAQINg&biw=909&bih=564

Since you provide no URL, it is a bit difficult to evaluate your points.

HWPeeler (HPeeler)

From: HWPeeler (HPeeler)

Jul-20

RGoss99 said:

how does one arrive at the garden of Eden with any dates.

How do you date a myth? It was (probably) Canaanite myth before Moses wrote it. Needless to say the story is just made up and is not actually an event people lived through. We can put a biblical date on it, but what is that worth? I don't recall the bible saying how much time elapsed between the creation of Adam to the tree and snake event. Adam to Seth is 130 years and Cain came before that. The tree and snake event occurs before Cain, so the tree and snake thing had to happen around the first century. But this is meaningless, isn't it?

Re: the stonework city

There is no trace of people other than the hunter / gatherers as far as has been mentioned. So it was suggested that the city was just a market place.

RGoss99

From: RGoss99

Jul-21

Market place would require something more then stone work.

Speaking of which, in the San Gabriel Valley (California) thjere is the "city" of "La Puente" which started as such.

Going west > east is the Puente Valley, defined by the San José creek and Valley Blvd (L.A. to Pomona - runs through about 8 towns - confusing because some addresses are calculated from Main Street in L.A. while others both east and west use a local town´s main street as a base line).

Going north > south, is a state highway with a number, from San Gabriel Canyon in Azusa to the beach - about 12 towns each with their own numbering systems.

Following natural geography these two  cross at right angles, and required a bridge (puente) across the San Jose Creek,

The N-S line also was the property line between two family land grants. What bettere meeting place, which became an open market, which got a church, St Joseph´s (San José) , stalls became buildings, backed by residences, now a city.

Note: still no URL or photos, difficult to tell as to this structure. The lack of urban evidence, is not necessarily meaningful, since important things were of stone, most construction was of mud, which with weathering would simply return to its prehuman configuration.

California was founded based on 21 Franciscan missions built primarily of adobe, most of these evolved into cities and towns. However I visited one site, which had nothing to see except piles of dirt. Without a sign, or map, an archaeologist, could assume a man made structure because mud does not stack and the ground is lumpy, but as to age , without artifacts it could be anything between 200 to 1000 years old.

Mallorca is basicly a rock, I have never seen evidence of soil more then 2m deep. One day visiting a friend, I noticed that a farm had a little hill covered with trees. We don´t have little free standing hills here, so this, to me, was a geological phenomena. I asked my friend who simply answere that this probably started as a pile or rocks the result of clearing a field. On closer inspection, I suspected not, and contacted the university. A government archaeologist was sent out, polked around and concluded it was a taliotic village - but we have so many of these as yet unexplored it was not worth the cost of an expedition - result - marked on a map, fenced, and noted incase someone wanted to build there.

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