adwil said:

I was momentarily pleased to see an accurate (and referenced) quote from Arendts 'Eichmann in Jerusalem'.   

90% of my assertions and quotes are referenced - and from pro-Zionist sources.

Not so for the real origin of "Jews cannot be Germans", which is still something I was hoping to discover. But your linking it to the Nazis in 1934 is stupid and irrelevant when I've already got it coming from the leader of the Zionists in March 1933 (ie before Hitler had lifted a finger against the Jews).

adwil said:

Then you spoil it all with a stupid piece of anti-Semitism which shows your true motivation.  

I'm not interested in the Jews, except as examples of people victimised by the Nazis - and by the Zionists.

My motivation is to learn the lessons of WW1 and WW2 and try to see that nothing like that happens again.

Your motivation seems to be to deny the evil of the Zionists - while BMs is to incite fear and hatred of Jews.

Hannah Arendt was a serious Zionist philosopher and strikes me as being obsessed with racism. She took it as an article of faith that Jews cannot be Germans. She was still quite clear about it years after the war.

adwil said:

He'll just repeat the same assertions next time he addresses this subject.

I'll repeat two major asssertions I've made in here - that the Gaon of Vilna cannot possibly have driven Zionism since his works were lost for the crucial 188 years.

Hence, BM's assertion that "where as mainstream Judaism had accepted that Jews could not return to Israel BEFORE the arrival of the Messiah The Gaon saw that in fact Jews must be in Israel prior to the arrival of the Messiah" is unproven and unlikely - and irrelevant to his thesis that the Gaon contributed to any part of the creation of Israel.

And if David Irving cheated much in his histories, you've been unable to show me any examples. Every "historian" of WW2 (certainly for the first 30 years) say nothing about the Holocaust!

adwil said:

Present some evidence. 

I present you what Hannah Arendt said long after the war:

... On October 28, 1964, the following conversation between Hannah Arendt and Giinter Gaus, at the time a well-known journalist and later a high official in Willy Brandt's government, was broadcast on West German television. The interview was awarded the Adolf Grimme Prize and was published the following year under the title "Wasbleibt? Es bleibt die Muttersprache" in Giinter Gaus, ZurPerson, Munich, 1965.

This English translation is by Joan Stambaugh.

ARENDT: My mother was not a very theoretical person. ... Of course she was a Jew. She would never have baptized me! I think she would have boxed my ears right and left if she had ever found out that I had denied being a Jew. ... when I was grown up it was much more important for my mother than in her earlier life. But that was due to external circumstances.

I myself, for example, don't believe that I have ever considered myself a German - in the sense of belonging to the people as opposed to being a citizen, if I may make that distinction. I remember discussing this with [Professor] jaspers around 1930. He said, "Of course you are German!" I said, "One can see that I am not!" But that didn't bother me. I didn't feel that it was something inferior. That wasn't the case at all.

Published in "Sozialistische Monatshefte", a well-known Germanjournal of the time. - ed.

Now, overwhelmingly, German Jews rejected Zionism and felt themselves to be German - but Hannah Arendt was a Zionist. She didn't feel German and she was loud in her belief that Jews could not be Germans.

And this is what leads me to say that the Zionists were preaching "Jews cannot be Germans" and had probably done so since 

These people tell us that a version of "Jews cannot be Germans" was mainstream Zionist in 1920.

Nazi Propaganda was Based on What Zionists Said

... In 1920 there were statements hostile to Jews expressed at Heidelberg University. These statements, arguing that Jews of Germany had caused the turmoil that followed the war; that the Jews of Germany had nothing in common with Germans, and that Germans had the right to prevent the Jews of Germany from intruding into the affairs of their volk were not made by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf, but by Nahum Goldmann, who went in to become the President of the World Zionist Organization and head of the World Jewish Congress, and, indisputably, the most influential political Zionist in the world, second only to the Prime Minister of the State of Israel.

In 1921, Germans in Germany were told that:

"We Jews are aliens ... a foreign people in your midst and we ... wish to stay that way. A Jew can never be a loyal German; whoever calls the foreign land his Fatherland is a traitor to the Jewish people".

Who spoke these vile words? It was Jacob Klatzkin, the second of two political Zionist ideologists in Germany at the time, where the Jews of Germany were enjoying full political and civil rights. It was he who had advocated undermining Jewish communities as the one certain way of acquiring a state. "They had no qualms concerning tearing down the existing Jewish communities."

Who spoke in a public address at a political Zionist meeting in Berlin and declared that "Germany ... has too many Jews"? Was it Hitler or Goebbels? No, it was Chaim Weizman, later to become the first President of the State of Israel. This address was published in 1920, and, thus, four years before Hitler had even written Mein Kampf.

... At the Nuremberg Trials of Major War Criminals, Nazi propagandist, Julius Streicher testified: "I did no more than echo what the leading Zionists had been saying", it is clear that he had told the truth. https://www.truetorahjews.org/zionism

bml00 said:

The idiot has buggered off as usual

You're the one who sprays this place with lies and runs away from issues.

I'm not the one who posts blatant lies in here, BM.

1) "Israeli gas which when it comes on Line is going to be enormous (far bigger than Russia etc)"

2) "There are no reports ANYWHERE of any Anti Christian activities in Israel"

3) "Europe has more weapons per capita than the US so it goes Kids will be using them"

4) "there is no Palestinian state don't make the usual arsole of yourself"

5) "There are many states with historical grievances I don't know wether[sic] Iran is one of them"

6) "Battery acid is little more than distilled water you dumb oaf" 

And there has been an even more serious delusion and monumental historical falsehood from you recently.

The Gaon of Vilna (d. 1797) cannot be the inventor of and religious champion of Zionism as you claim - his never published works didn't even reach Palestine, they turned up in 1945 when the Russians found them. Nothing on his views ever appeared in print until an abstruse religious book in 1985. His sole real claim to fame is a hatred of Hasidics and his failure to stop them taking over in Lithuania. His beliefs are said to be Messianic, as may mean he sought to recognise Jesus as a prophet or may mean something else entirely.

Further proof that this bizarre religious theory of which you know nothing atall (and care less!!) comes from a bizarre error you made - on at least 10 occasions you called him "The Goan" - a man from the West Coast of India!

George Of The Jungle (GOTJ1) said:

As I perceive things, Jewish is a faith and heritage

BM insists that being Jewish is racial.

Israel insists the same - turns away black Jews and forbids Jews to marry non-Jews. 

George Of The Jungle (GOTJ1) said: Jewish is a faith and heritage, German is a nationality- why wouldn’t someone be able to be both?

The Zionists of the 1920s and 1930s insisted that Jews cannot be Germans.

The German Jews overwhelmingly rejected that poisonous message. 

p.168 Edwin Black book "The Transfer Agreement" 1984, 1999, 2001 & 2009

... When World War I broke out, it was an opportunity German Jews awaited to prove they were patriotic, fully integrated Germans. About 100,000 Jews fought, 80,000 in the trenches. Some 12,000 were killed. ... After Britain's 1917 Balfour Declaration promised a Jewish national home in Palestine, German Jews frantically avoided any identification with Zionist activities 

... Before 1933, fewer than 1 percent of the Yishuv, or Jewish community in Palestine, had immigrated from Germany. In 1912, only 8,400 out of roughly 550,000 German Jews elected to pay the token shekel of Zionist membership. In 1927, German Zionist affiliation had grown to about 20,000. But that figure included many so-called non-Zionists, who endorsed Jewish philanthropic settlements in Palestine but wholly rejected the concept of Jewish nationalism ... [7. Reinharz, p.141-42; Niewyk, p.149, 156; "Zionism," Encyclopaedia Judaica" Jerusalem; Keter, 1971), XVI; 1116.]

See http://www.transferagreement.com for glowing testimonials of Edwin Black and his book.

adwil said:

Yes, you'd have thought he'd have adjusted. 

Adjusted to what?

BMs streams of lies (listed above) and your vicious antisemitism, describing devout Jews as "fruitcakes, dangerous fruitcakes"?

Morning Sir

As you can see the resident racist is in full on mode , the cut and pastes have been used umpteen times by the poster and proven to be either inaccurate inappropriate or absolutely noting to do with nothing 

A pity that such racism is permitted 

BM

One of the most bizarre posts ever from the idiot liar berry

If you enjoy idiots and liars the enjoy this delicacy because it is a gem

A racist attempt to denigrate one of the most highly respected Jewish thinkers ever 

BM

BerrySteph said:
90% of my assertions and quotes are referenced - and from pro-Zionist sources.

Your quotes are usually problematic because they're not specific. You state a source, but need to quote page and paragraph if possible.  You also need to make clear your real source when you present an apparent quote, that you've gleaned from another writer, especially when they are not historians. The most recent example was a Google link that seemed to be a quote about Deborah Lipstadt. Following your link took me to a Norman Finklestein book that you didn't reference as your source. The problem about Finklestein is that he's a polemicist, a political activist, not an historian. 

".....and from pro-Zionist sources."

That makes them far less believable because the source is 'political'. (Like Finklestein (anti-Zionist) or Ben Hecht (Rabid Irgunist Zionist).)  Of the two, Finklestein is the more reliable, but he's still driven by his political viewpoint so what he writes has to be handled with care.

Most modern historians are scrupulously accurate and present carefully referenced evidence. They present what they've discovered and don't 'push' a political point of view. They let the evidence speak. That doesn't mean they don't have private political views, but if they let those dictate the history they're writing, other historians would rip them apart.

" I've already got it coming from the leader of the Zionists in March 1933 "

Could you give me your source? 

Helmut Kallmann, a Holocaust survivor whose family were murdered by the Nazis, wrote "German Jewish liberals in my childhood considered themselves German by nationality and ethnicity, Jewish by religion. Along came the Nazis and said: "Once a Jew, always a Jew" and the Jews cannot be Germans."  He points out that some Zionists agreed with that statement, which is the inevitable reaction, I suppose, but he appears to be in no doubt that the statement originated with the Nazis. 

Mapping Canada's Music: Selected Writings of Helmut Kallmann
By Helmut Kallmann

Chapter 16. The Matter of Identity. (Third page of chapter. No page numbers.)

"I'm not interested in the Jews, except as examples of people victimised by the Nazis - and by the Zionists.

My motivation is to learn the lessons of WW1 and WW2 and try to see that nothing like that happens again."

No doubt you think this is a praiseworthy objective but it betrays your political prejudices. You place Nazi and Zionist in the same category. That is: Nazis=Zionists. 

They don't. 

"Hannah Arendt was a serious Zionist philosopher and strikes me as being obsessed with racism. She took it as an article of faith that Jews cannot be Germans. She was still quite clear about it years after the war."

I only know of Arendt's 'Banality of Evil' - her impressions of the Eichmann Trial. If you have any evidence that she believed 'Jews cannot be Germans' please post it. 

BerrySteph said:

"the Gaon of Vilna cannot possibly have driven Zionism since his works were lost for the crucial 188 years."

How is that relevant? 

He spoke, he had followers, he was very influential in his day. 

He died in 1797. He set out for Israel but got no farther than Germany. 

On the other hand, his disciples, the Perushim, left Vilnius for Palestine in 1808 and 1809. 

Their aims were:

"Rebuild Jerusalem as the acknowledged Torah center of the world,
Aid and speed the ingathering of the Jewish exile, and.
Expand the currently settled areas of the Land of Israel."

That sounds very Zionist to me and must reflect the views of their deceased leader, the Gaon of Vilna.