RGoss99 said:

Pathological Works because when the discrepency between facts/logic and faith gets too great the symptoms of a mental break down in individuals, and social breakdowns in in a society tend to get serious. 

Hmmmmm .... I'm not sure. Pathological individuals can function quite well in society.

RGoss99 said:

... when the discrepency between facts/logic and faith gets too great the symptoms of a mental break down in individuals, and social breakdowns in in a society tend to get serious. Trump´s America and Brexit are current examles. What I see in both these cases, is some rather minor issue triggering an administrative acción catering to the base, resulting in an explosión. 

I think you have that wrong - Trump and Brexit are circling of the wagons against immigration. Both very damaging but not pathological.

RGoss99 said:

Using the American example, a flawed electoral process allowed a person who lost the popular vote to become president

The same thing can happen in civilised societies, though its only happened here once since the war.

Labour won more seats (though fewer votes) than the Conservative Party in the general election in February 1974, which resulted in a hung parliament. As Heath was unable to persuade the Liberals to form a coalition, Wilson returned to 10 Downing Street on 4 March 1974 as Prime Minister of a minority Labour Government. He gained a three-seat majority in another election later that year, on 10 October 1974. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Wilson#Second_period_as_Prime_Minister_(1974%E2%80%9376)

I'm puzzled that it doesn't seem to go "wrong" more often than that, but there's no question it can do so.

RGoss99 said:

Using the American example, a flawed electoral process allowed a person who lost the popular vote to become president, and the false concepts of what a state is as represented in the U.S. senate allowed Trump to get a not guilty vote when if one counts the populations of the varios senatorial districts, if the senate represented the population, then the guilty votes would have impeached Trump. For example every state has two senators, but say California has a population 50x greater then Wisconsin, this means that Wisconsin senate votes nullify Californias. (if I have time some day, I would like to do the math on this issue).

Now, that is interesting and significant. And you've already done part of the work here - http://forums.delphiforums.com/aususuk/messages/751/99

... each state regardless of size or population gets two senators. Here is Wisconsin, which has no natural borders compares with California which pretty much does and has a unique population different from its neighbors (Oregon, Nevada, Arizona). A senator from California (population 39.5) needs 7 California votes to equal one vote for a senator from Wisconsin (population 5.8 million). 

For president, the electoral college combines the false concept of state with population, as each state gets at least three electoral votes, 2 automaticly, and one for population. So California gets 55 electoral votes (2 automaticly plus 53 for population) and Wisconsin gets 10 (2 guaranteed plus 8 for population) This means that  for president it takes 11 California votes to equal 9 Wisconsin votes.

Obviously you are unaware of the meaning of documentation. All you have provided is a series of facts that remain imaginary until you can document their source. E.G. who took the poll, how as the sample selected, what is thestandard deviation in the results, and what were the actual words used in the question. Any legitimate poll will provide the answers to these questions. Obviously in your ignorance you do not consider these questions important, I and others do. But don´t feel bad, most people like yourselves just stop at the raw numbers that support their pre-existing opinions. Note that in courses I teach where polls are relevant I usually have to spend class time lecturing on what is necessary to know before relying on raw poll numbers. I start by asking the class to design a poll that meets these requirements, and about 90% fail. This is important because it is the way I get their attention when I explain why theirs fail. Most don´t even have a clue as to what an error factor is or the math skills to determine it.

Where we disagree is the implication of "only (not stated) circling the wagons". To me immigration is a bogus issue aimed at the ignorant electorate. for example, in the U.K. the concept of immigrant in the probrexit mind is not immigrants from the E.U. but those non European immigrants, mostly from former British colonies. It has been mentioned by anti brexit commentators that suppression of E.U. immigration without native UK workers to take their place Will probably result in more 3rd world immigrants to take the place of native E.U. Would a typical British racist real prefer a doctor or nurse from the Indian subcontinent to one from the Netherlands. Brexit is going through because the average Brit has no clue as to he is already benefiting from the U.K. having joined the E.U. Those who have been mostly harmed are not the exploited native Brits, but the native Brittish exploiters, of the Brits. If one looks at some segments of the U.K. population and those of Gibraltar who are against Brexit. many of them via the E.U. have benefited in their struggles against the British establishment. Scotland has taken London to court in the E.U. and succeeded to its Benefit. The pro Britih lement in Gibraltar have no desire to return to England because they have a better life under E.U. rules. Health and nutrition rules under E.U. standards have improved British life generally. Trump is playing the same game blaing immigrants for bogus memes, while himself outsourcing his financial interests to foreign countries. So a bunch of coal miners get work, because Trump is picking on China, but a larger number of farmers are suffering by purchases of their soy crop by China going down. Withput exploiting Mexican laborers American food prices would go up and nutrition down. What native Americans would wait on tables in Trump´s hotels, restaurants, golf courses. 

Not really on topic but related. In Scotland Trump brags about the increased employment based on his latest golf course This is true but as the number of golfers has ramained constant, all this means is relocating staff from one golf course to another, cutting the income in one área, and increasing the infrastructure costs in another which the local tax payers have to pay for, while the profits go into Trump´s bank accounts off shore.

RGoss99 said:

Withput exploiting Mexican laborers American food prices would go up and nutrition down. What native Americans would wait on tables in Trump´s hotels, restaurants, golf courses. 

I think its a fundamental mistake to import a new working class because the old one is burned out and beaten down.

That factor explains both Trump and Brexit.

Yes, but to blame immigrants is attacking the symptom, while avoiding the cause in both the U.S. and the U.K. For example, Tyson (checker parts) a republican and Trump supporter, does not want immigration strictly enforced because he needs the immigrants legal or not to do the work of cutting up chickens, because out of work people in Arkansas prefer state handouts to the low paid job of plucking chickens with no medical benefits giving them carpal tunnel because of the working conditions.

Jenifer (Zarknorph) said:

Are you having a stroke?

After tolerating Goss' crap for too long now, I'm wondering if I already had one.

Did you know Squaddyb submitted a Promo (years ago) regarding Goss' secretary? Unlike a couple he previously submitted and were turned down, this one saw the light of day. Either Delphi Staff no longer cares about those peccadilloes or it just went by their heads (a big whoosh). Unless Goss can claim he's a quadriplegic, he's clearly violating Section I. (Your Registration and User Account), subsections i and iii from TOS.

RGoss99 said:

Yes, but to blame immigrants is attacking the symptom, while avoiding the cause in both the U.S. and the U.K. For example, Tyson (checker parts) a republican and Trump supporter, does not want immigration strictly enforced because he needs the immigrants legal or not to do the work of cutting up chickens, because out of work people in Arkansas prefer state handouts to the low paid job of plucking chickens with no medical benefits giving them carpal tunnel because of the working conditions.

Tyson needs to start employing Americans again. It is not acceptable to bring in a new working class because the indigenous one is unwilling.

Rubbish unless you can provide a quote that unequivocably supports this post.

Pig-headed whinged:

Rubbish unless you can provide a quote that unequivocably supports this post

Can you find the Promo you submitted? Pig-headed know-it-all keeps going around in circles. I know, you are now a mere mortal (Delphi's non-paying member) but maybe the Mod will chip in.

Of course he does, but being a wealthy Republican who contributes to the party, and given a hand picked attourney general who interferes with the judiciary (Stone in this case), it is not likely to happen. There is a very easy solution within the law it comes in two steps. 1. a national identity card that is required (but need not be shown) at every contact with the state, banks, education, housing, certification, etc. Ironicly the data is already on line, but in such a way that access is often illegal or difficult to reach. 2. Aggressively fine every employer who hires an illegal without such a card.

There are laws that would still permit immigrants in legally. The California one I am familiar with goes like this. An employer needs an employee with specific qualifications, but can´t seem to find one within the U.S. He finds one outside and files a petition. Step 1 if the petition is approvedmeans he has to advertise the job with the state employment office, and certain periodicals for a certain amount of time (6 weeks I seem to remember). During that time he has to interview everyone who applies, and file a report justifying not hiring that person. After six weeks, a visa and work permit will be granted along with a social security number. Sure, it is a lot of work, but if the request is genuine it is fair.

It is not perfect because people can still play games. Here are two exmples the first failed, and the second I used that didn´t.

1. Mexico has regional food, and that of the Mayan part of Mexico is quite different then the Tex-Mex Americans are familiar with. A Mexican American citizen opened a restaurant speciaizing in Nyarit cuisine, and based his claim on the fact that he said he needed his cousin, a Nyarit trained cook. In six weeks no one qualified showed up, so he applied for the peremit because the government said "no" because there was nothng peculiar about Nyarit cuisine that any cook of any ethnicity could not pick up out of a standard cookbook. nice try, but sorry.

2. I had a cousin, who was living at home in Scotland with a very abusive mother. I invited her to California on a visa for Christmas vacation, she liked it and wanted to stay. She had a degree from a Scottish university that did not exist in the U.S. at the time, dental surgury assistant, jokingly called "four handed dentestry" in Scotland.At that time in California the only professionals working with dentists did not have a degree, just a diploma. However a woman I knew had a son who was my dentist and I asked him if he could help. Of course he said, because this particulr technique was not common in America at that time but it was the way dentestry was headed*. So I had her send for her university records, CV, and qualifications for that degree. So when the dentist applied, he included the specs in the application. During the six weeks, obviously there were no qualified California Dental Surgury assistants, so he was able to justify rejecting all who applied, and she got the job. Incidently based on this 4 of his USC associates did the same thing and "imported" four Scottish grads from the same university. This would not work today as this was about 1976, and now USC and other universities have a four year degree program that has caught up with Scotland.

*I don´t know your medical or dental experience but at about the same time in the U.S. and the U.K. there was a crisis developing based on the lack of ualified doctors and the time it took to get a full M.D. on line. One solution is a 4 year degree program in California called something like "Medical Assistant" because one solution to the shortage was an endepth analysis of what an M.D. actually does, and it was discovered that over half of what the average M.D. spends his time doing could be done just as efficiently and cheaply by a "medical assistant" if we figure half, then why not pair every doctor with such an assistant to share the work, and the M.D. would become twice as productive. 

In my life time I have had a heart attack, cancer, a stroke, loss of a kidney, need glasses to read, and a hearing aid. Only the latter 2 after I reached 60, but now at 80, under the Spanish health care system, my doctors are worried about some things. For all the former things, I went to a personal physician who took care of me. Since last May (turned 80) I have been making the rounds organized by computer. First I was given an appointment for last Wednesday at 16:14. The day before I got an automatic e-mail reminding me of the appointment, told me to eat a light breakfast and nothing the rest of the day. Showed me a list of my existing medication (9 perscriptions) and asked me to update it (not necessary as it was accuate - the newest was a a week ago but the doctor did not even have to write a perscription because with my medical card it was already waiting for me at my neighborhood phrmacy). It asked question about any technical aparatus onnected to my body (hearing aids which I was told to remove), I drove to  clinic, entered a waiting room, and stuck my card in a machine, that printed out a piece of paper saying they would be ready for me at 16:25 at some room specified on the floor below, and suggested that I use the bathroom facilities, before I went to dressing room 1 strip and put own some gown. and wait until I was summoned. A technician, not a nurse knocked on the door, verified my identity from my medical card, explained the procedure, verified that I did not have a pacemaker, etc. stressed the importance that the procedre took 15 minues, and that I should not move during that time. Put me on the machine strapped me down and left me alone with music designed to help me ignore all the noise the machine made. After 15 minute told me I did a good job helped me bck to the dressing room to change back wheere a sandwich, a cookie, and some juice was waitin, came back had me walk to make sure I had no balance problems and said my dictor would be in touch. Entire procedure free, took about 30 minutes, I never saw a single doctor or nurse, though I noticed that I was being monitored from another room. The first time I had an MRI it took all morning, involved a doctor, a nuse, and some technicins, and cost my American insurance company a bundle and me a large co-payment.

I describe this becuse is the way things are being handled now, seeing les MDs or RNs and more specialized technicians, and when I do see a doctor, there iis no poking proding measuring it is like sitting in a lawyer´s office and just chatting (being recorded to be transcribed later). Involving imported personnel. when I was in hospital for my stroke, in America, I saw a doctor on rounds who spent more time looking at my chart then talking to me, several diffeerent people lower in the food chain, and the only American was a former U.S. Army nurse, the majority were from the Philipines, and the doctor who checked me was from India, unlicensed in California, but working under a doctor who was whom I never saw. My village only pharmacy has two graduate pharmaciss, siblings children of the former pharmacist, I only interact with them when they want to chat about my health. The rest of the time, I am ser