Coalition of the Confused

Hosted by Jenifer (Zarknorph)

Commonwealth refugees swilling chardonnay while awaiting the Zombie Apocalypse.

  • 270
    MEMBERS
  • 7250
    MESSAGES
  • 37
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

Evolution always evolving   Science

Started Jan-25 by Jenifer (Zarknorph); 2562 views.
Jenifer (Zarknorph)

From: Jenifer (Zarknorph)

Jan-25

Ancient jaw bone found in Israel shows modern humans left Africa 180,000 years ago

Image result for Human

Modern humans were wandering out of Africa at least 180,000 years ago — some 60,000 years earlier than previously thought.

Key points:

  • Oldest evidence for Homo sapiens outside Africa was found in a cave in Israel
  • A partial jaw bone, teeth and stone tools were dated to around 180,000 years old
  • The fossil find raises the possibility that modern humans migrated to Europe much earlier than thought

The new migration date comes after ancient stone tools and part of a fossilised Homo sapiens jaw bone with teeth were discovered in a cave in northern Israel.

Until now, the oldest evidence for modern humans outside Africa were only 90,000 to 120,000 years old.

The fossil jaw and tools, presented today in the journal Science, challenges currently accepted ideas about how modern humans dispersed from Africa, according to Peter Hiscock, an archaeologist at the University of Sydney.

"For a long time, there's been a disjunction between the stories told by genetics and the stories told by the archaeological skeletons," he said.

While geneticists have traced the modern human's emergence from Africa back around 60,000 to 80,000 years, "skeletal information excavated by archaeologists has told a much older story", Professor Hiscock said.

Homo sapiens or Neanderthal?

Israel has long been an attractive site to look for evidence of modern humans making the move from Africa to Eurasia.

Caves in the north of the country have yielded many old hominid fossils and artefacts, including the previously oldest known Homo sapiens fossils outside Africa.

In 2001, Israel Hershkovitz from the University of Tel Aviv and his colleagues began excavating the Misliya Cave, near Mount Carmel.

It didn't take long to strike gold. In 2002, a student found a partial jaw bone.

How to date a hominid

After establishing the jaw-owner's species, it was time to find out how old it was.

To triple check, the researchers enlisted help from three independent dating labs.

Rainer Grun, who was then at the Australian National University, was sent a "teeny, tiny bit of the tooth".

Professor Grun used a minimally destructive technique that "uses a quite large laser to burn tiny holes" to date the sample.

Two other labs dated the age of the sediment crust clinging to the fossil and burnt tools found nearby.

They all yielded estimations that were roughly the same: around 177,000 years old, give or take 20,000 years or so.

...[Message truncated]
View Full Message
Nucc

From: Nucc

Jan-30

Jenifer (Zarknorph) said:

Modern humans were wandering out of Africa at least 180,000 years ago — some 60,000 years earlier than previously thought.

More conjecture.  SCIENCE is based on WHAT WE KNOW, NOT on what we THINK we know. The TRULY INTELLIGENT MIND sees that what MACRO-EVOLUTIONISTS presented as FACT is now observed as NOT BEING FACT.  What is NOT FACT is GUESSING (CONJECTURE) which is NOT SCIENCE. 

Jenifer, do you have any FACTUAL SCIENCE because these  MACRO-EVOLUTIONISTS like to kick the can down the road and the GULLIBLE FOOLISHLY suck it right up?

In reply toRe: msg 2
Jenifer (Zarknorph)

From: Jenifer (Zarknorph)

Jan-30

Scientists don't speak in absolutes until a theory is proven.

Yes, it is conjecture.  But conjecture based on proven scientific principals such as carbon dating.

Now this particular person might be one of a tribe, or an anomaly.

Scientists know what they don't know and it does not scare them.

What proof do you have that the world was created by a single deity in six days a few thousand years ago?

Nucc

From: Nucc

Jan-31

Jenifer (Zarknorph) said:

Yes, it is conjecture.  But conjecture based on proven scientific principals such as carbon dating.

What method of carbon dating Jenifer?  MACROS can't even agree on number of years.

Jenifer (Zarknorph) said:

Scientists know what they don't know and it does not scare them.

They're NOT scientists Jenifer. SCIENTISTS work from FACTS NOT CONJECTURE. 

Jenifer (Zarknorph) said:

What proof do you have that the world was created by a single deity in six days a few thousand years ago?

Well God can do ANYTHING in ANY WAY HE chooses because He's God.  I suggest you look at the FACTUAL EVIDENCE.  WHY are there MORALS?  Show me the MORAL CELL. ALSO explain the FINE TUNING of the UNIVERSE for LIFE.   Evidence shows the universe had a BEGINNING and the Bible states that too. What or WHO was the CAUSE of the universe to begin since NOTHING MATERIALISTIC existed before the beginning?  AND the FINAL QUESTION for this post...IF material DID EXIST where did it exist since there was NO UNIVERSE in which it could exist?  

I PERSONALLY believe in a YOUNG EARTH (six day creation) but there are TRUE CHRISTIANS that believe in the old earth creation.  I have theological issues with that view as I see a lot of CONJECTURE BUT when and if their view is proven FACTUAL, I'd be open to having another look at it.

In reply toRe: msg 4
Nucc said:

 WHY are there MORALS?  Show me the MORAL CELL.

HOORAY!!  Something interesting to talk about!

From a purely psychological standpoint, the human psyche is carved into three states.  The Id, the Ego and the Superego.

The Id focuses on our immediate wants; food, sex, possessions.

The Ego tells us what we cannot have; too fat, too ugly, not enough money.

The Superego tells us what we shouldn't want; gluttony, lust, greed.

Humans formed communities for companionship as well as safety.  The community forms the superego - where morality comes from.

I disagree that any person is born evil.  However the Id could be considered the "sin" we are all born with.  Babies and toddlers are crying, crawling, toddling Id machines until they are taught by parents, then schools, then society at large what is acceptable behaviour.

Now brain injuries and tumors can radically change a person's personality, as can dementia and Alzheimer's.

Also criminal brain scans have revealed anomalies that are different than normal, law abiding citizens.

https://www.livescience.com/13083-criminals-brain-neuroscience-ethics.html

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/mar/13/brain-scans-can-spot-criminals-scientists-say

Also, morals are subjective depending on how you were raised.

Sure, don't kill, steal, lie, cheat... all standards.  But sex before marriage?  Choosing not to wear a hijab? Divorce? How we treat refugees?  All of this tends to have different levels of fluidity depending on who you ask.  And the true morality appears in how we treat those who we feel have crossed our own personal moral boundaries, such as stoning a woman to death for adultery.

To identify the "moral cell", you first have to identify morality.

Nucc said:

IF material DID EXIST where did it exist since there was NO UNIVERSE in which it could exist?  

I LOVE this question!!!

But we will leave it for another day and continue on with this interesting chewable fat.

Cheers,

Jenifer

In reply toRe: msg 5

Mystery surrounds ancient but advanced tools found in India

A huge haul of ancient stone tools from India has archaeologists scratching their heads over who made them.

Key points:

  • More than 7,000 stone tools were excavated from a site near Chennai, India
  • Scrapers, blades and points produced by an advanced stone-shaping technique were dated to about 385,000 years ago
  • Lack of fossil evidence means it's impossible to say for sure who made the tools, but it was probably not modern humans

In today's issue of Nature, researchers report a discovery of more than 7,000 stone tools showing a distinct upgrade in stone-shaping techniques — including advanced blades, points and scrapers — dating as far back as 385,000 years ago.

Their findings suggest that modern stone tools were being made in India 250,000 years earlier than previously thought. The question is by whom?

The researchers say the tools may have been made by an archaic species of hominin, rather than modern humans — although it's impossible to tell.

Tracing prehistory through stone tools

While fossilised remains of hominins are rare, the stone tools they bashed out can last hundreds of thousands of years — particularly if they're buried and remain untouched.

In 1999, archaeologists Kumar Akhilesh and Shanti Pappu from the Sharma Centre for Heritage Education in Chennai, India began excavating the Attirampakkam archaeological site, about 60 kilometres away.

(The site itself was discovered when British geologist Robert Bruce Foote found stone tools on the ground in 1863.)

As the archaeologists and their team dug, they uncovered more than 7,000 stone tools along the way.

Sediment layer ages were determined by luminescence dating, which measures how much time has passed since crystals in the layers last saw light.

The deepest, oldest excavated layers, which were more than four metres below the surface, contained tools bearing hallmarks of the "Acheulian" style of manufacture: big chunky hand-axes with chipped edges.

But the younger layers above — which were dated to 385,000 years old, plus or minus 64,000 years — were largely devoid of Acheulian tools.

Instead, it contained tools produced by a more advanced method typical of Middle Stone Age culture, known as the Levallois technique, Professor Pappu said.

"You have a predominance of very small flaked tools, you have a few tools that have a tang [which helps secure it to a handle], and you have the beginnings of blade technology."

Working up, the site's sediment layers continued to contain tools made in the advanced Levallois way, until about a metre from the surface, where almost no stone tools were found.

"For some reason around 73,000 or 74,000 years ago, the site was completely abandoned," Professor Pappu said.

...[Message truncated]
View Full Message
Nucc

From: Nucc

Feb-2

Jenifer (Zarknorph) said:

Also, morals are subjective depending on how you were raised. Sure, don't kill, steal, lie, cheat... all standards

Those are in the Bible Jenifer.  Atheists don't believe in God.  You have to present to me the MORALS of ATHEISM and the MORAL CELL from which you get ATHEIST MORALS. 

Jenifer (Zarknorph) said:

Nucc said: IF material DID EXIST where did it exist since there was NO UNIVERSE in which it could exist?  

I LOVE this question!!!

The MORAL CELL is MATERIAL therefore the question applies there as well.

Nucc

From: Nucc

Feb-2

All of that proves NOTHING Jenifer.  How do you know they weren't made by humans?

In reply toRe: msg 7

Morality existed before the bible.  A lot of stuff happened B.C.

Basic laws, responsibilities and the community existed.

Those responsibilities, such as gathering food, protecting the young, watching each other's back while hunting are shown in early cave paintings.

The ceremony and care of burials that have been excavated also show sentiment and devotion.

Morality comes from the desire to take care of one another.

But if you are looking for a "moral cell", then the closest that you could get to that is chemical release in the brain.

When a woman gives birth her brain is flooded with oxytocin.  This stops her from just abandoning the baby.  This chemical is also highly present at weddings, birthdays, family events... 

Dopamine is also a chemical release when we are happy.

But how does this affect morality?

Perhaps just experiencing these lovely feelings, through acts of kindness and living in a harmonious community led to the connection that being good to one another is it's own reward.

So... don't lie, cheat, steal, kill - the ten commandments were pretty much already in place.  Just the religious stuff was added.

Some reading for you:

https://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/morality_evolved_first_long_before_religion

https://spectrum.ieee.org/podcast/geek-life/profiles/can-one-chemical-be-the-basis-of-all-morality

Ted talk here:

https://www.ted.com/talks/paul_zak_trust_morality_and_oxytocin

Nucc

From: Nucc

Feb-3

Jenifer (Zarknorph) said:

Morality existed before the bible.

Where Jenifer?    That's just MORE conjecture with NO SUSTANTIATION.  I asked you to provide the MORAL CELL ...Has ATHEISM failed you AGAIN?  Poor Jenifer. The ATHEISTS here that you defend are letting YOU be the SACRIFICIAL LAMB of their LIE.

Jenifer (Zarknorph) said:

Morality comes from the desire to take care of one another.

  You're defending MACRO-EVOLUTION, SO where did MORALITY ORIGINATE?

Jenifer (Zarknorph) said:

But if you are looking for a "moral cell", then the closest that you could get to that is chemical release in the brain. When a woman gives birth her brain is flooded with oxytocin.  This stops her from just abandoning the baby.  This chemical is also highly present at weddings, birthdays, family events... 

So what is the CHEMICAL RELEASE of MORALS?   Please STOP with the CONJECTURE. You NEED to PROVIDE FACTS.

Jenifer (Zarknorph) said:

Those responsibilities, such as gathering food, protecting the young, watching each other's back while hunting are shown in early cave paintings.

What does that have to do with MORALITY????   That's BASIC INSTINCT for SURVIVAL, NOT MORALITY and if you believe that IS MORALITY WHERE did it ORIGINATE?

I also viewed in part the links, but Jenifer.  It's just conjecture. ONLY GOD KNOWS what is GOOD and WHAT IS BAD BEHAVIOR.  Do these guys know everything there is to know about everything???? NO.

We need WHAT IS, NOT what we THINK that is.

TOP