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Is Historian David Irving a bad person?    Africa and the Middle East

Started 9/7/19 by BerrySteph; 10080 views.
In reply toRe: msg 188
BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

May-22

To BM and Adwil and Zarknorph.

I've now had a second really good look at Richard Evans' book on David Irving and am satisfied that Irving was falsifying history fairly systematically right from his first book ("The Destruction of Dresden"). Some of Irving's testimony at the libel trial (interspersed with very good historical points based on excellent recall) is self-contradicting Holocaust Denial. This justifies Irving losing the case - even if it took $millions in dark money and a lot of dirty tricks to bring that about.

Having satisfied myself that Irving has been caught falsifying I can't be sure about the dirty tricks and whether his story about the "Friends of Durham University History Society" story is true or not. Nor can I be sure of what he claims, that much of his trial preparation was aimed at questioning Deborah Lipstadt, as he was promised would happen at the trial. Legal trickery meaned that this promise could be given - but all his preparation would be wasted, she didn't have to appear for herself. Only Irving had to defend himself not having the $millions available to Lipstadt. Nor could Irving be defended by any Germans, beaten down over the years by prison sentences for anyone questioning "official" histories of WW2. One of them, Nolte, was threateningly smeared by Richard Evans.

Worth noting - Irving's falsifications were always there - but his Denial only started with the Zundel trial in 1988, which is 11 years after his most famous (and still well reviewed) "Hitlers War". I can only be sure of the Holocaust Denial part because Irving publishes the entire transcript in a trial, much better formatted than the waste-of-space HDOT version, and some of the passages clearly show Irving dis-sembling on the subject of deaths by gassings. All in all, Irving is nowhere near as dishonest as modern Israeli authors (historians?) even though one can fairly accuse Irving of being open-minded to the point of credulity about the Nazis.

I can also see why nobody would answer my questions concerning real errors in David Irvings work (were there 19 or 30? No listing anywhere atall that I can find). Most of Irving's work was clearly good and important. Startlingly, much of his work - speaking to the secretaries of top Nazis - could have been done by anti-Nazis just as well as by Irving - so why did this not happen? Some of Irvings suspicions were entirely valid - because even the most basic investigations were never done. If we can do it immediately and thoroughly in Bosnia and Iraq, why not in Germany and Poland? 100s of bookshelf feet of Holocaust literature based on gut feeling.

What's the cover up? I think I know bits of it - whole-hearted support and funding of the Nazis during their rise to power by US industrialists.

We know that Ford and GM and Prescott Bush actively contributed to the war on the side of the Nazis. We know that IBM played an active - even central - part in the Holocaust (and their chief archivist was still fighting to cover up with lies and smears in 2009). Standard Oil supplied the tetraethyl lead without which the planes of the Nazis could not have flown. Lots more at http://www.mit.edu/~thistle/v13/3/oil.html

We know that Joe Kennedy wanted and believed that the Nazis would defeat the UK (whereupon the US would never have got involved).

Randolph Hearst was a great admirer, Carnegie-Mellon were passionate sponsors of the International Eugenics Society and were very likely behind Aktion T4 and the machinery of extermination. That's the crux of the first cover-up.

I think there's a second cover up concerning the famous part of the Holocaust, the one with the gassings. Any investigation of the concentration camps would have discovered that Elie Wiesel and Simon Wiesenthal (and, presumably, hundreds of other Zionists who changed their names later) played such an active part in the Holocaust that they might as well have been Nazis and organisers of it. Rudolf Kastner most certainly was, despite Adwil's angry and ludicrous denials.

All in all, David Irving, even with his big failings as a historian, is nowhere near as dishonest as the Zionists in here and elsewhere continue to be!

Lastly, even after all of this I still cannot get an answer to my question - if we've counted a miniumum of 2,850,000 Jews killed in the Holocaust of bullets, how can 6 million more of them have died in concentration camps?

That's what the world's most famous "Holocaust Historian" is now teaching us!

adwil

From: adwil

May-22

What's the point of accepting that Irving did falsify some history, whilst still keeping the same views about the Holocaust.

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

May-22

adwil said:

What's the point of accepting that Irving did falsify some history, whilst still keeping the same views about the Holocaust.

You're just in the business of smearing people, aren't you?

I've never had a problem with the "official" numbers of dead in the Holocaust. I've never seen a credible reason to disbelieve them - the biggest mis-match being that great hero of Auschwitz, Rudolf Vrba, who reckons the number were 1.7 million not 1.1 million gassed in total (of which 900,000 were Jews).

However, there is a much bigger mystery than your disgusting treatment of Vrba and Wexler, being the new message from the Oracle - the real number of Jews killed was either 9 or maybe 12 million.

Is this a historical correction, or another disgusting fraud from your friends, the "Moderate Zionists"?

adwil

From: adwil

May-22

I have no idea what you're talking about. 

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

May-22

adwil said:

I have no idea what you're talking about. 

Still running away.

The Holocaust Industry appears to have invented a new death toll - either 9 or maybe 12 milllion Jews murdered.

But Adwil claims not to see the problem and knows better than to defend this new sleight of hand.

Jenifer (Zarknorph)
Host

From: Jenifer (Zarknorph)

May-23

I'm glad you came to a half-assed conclusion that Irving was a bigoted liar.

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

May-23

Jenifer (Zarknorph) said:

I'm glad you came to a half-assed conclusion that Irving was a bigoted liar.

You hate me for looking at the case and deciding that, however gross was Irving's treatment, some of the charges against him were true. 

Nevertheless, David Irving remains better than many other historians - or sources for historians. Irving may be sensationally good on that last score - or maybe, other historians are sensationally bad. Most worryingly, he's the only western historian against whom there has ever been a well-funded campaign. (Or indeed, any campaign).

What would you say to a historian who defends ethnic cleansing? A man who obviously and outrageously distorting the positions and legitimate interests of the two parties. (Adwil selected him as a good example of "reputable historian").

Answer - you're not going to engage on any of the issues - and will side with one of the most calculatingly evil "history person" you'll ever meet in a Forum.

You and these stagggeringly dishonest people are never going to tell me why the number of Jewish victims of the Holocaust has, quite suddenly, been lifted from 6 million to at least 9 million.

Nor will you engage in any of the other mysteries - for instance, why we can count and mostly name the number of Holocaust victims (great secrecy, middle of World War, in Eastern Europe) but cannot count or name any of the victims of Kristalnacht (peace time, no secrecy, good communications).

Jenifer (Zarknorph)
Host

From: Jenifer (Zarknorph)

May-23

I don't hate you Berry.

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

May-23

Jenifer (Zarknorph) said:

ThI don't hate you Berry.

Something causes you to feel very threatened by the ideas I put forward.

Something causes you to suck up to a world-leading extremist - the only person ever to have attempted to defend Kurt Becher, the man who robbed all the Hungarian Jews of pretty much all their money - and was the principle behind the "Gold Train".

That's pretty extreme behavour on your part!

adwil

From: adwil

May-23

I haven't sen this. Present evidence.

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