Coalition of the Confused

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Confused malcontents swilling Chardonnay while awaiting the Zombie Apocalypse.

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Analysing Terrorism   General Confusion

Started 7/23/18 by Jenifer (Zarknorph); 5229 views.
In reply toRe: msg 5
Jenifer (Zarknorph)
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From: Jenifer (Zarknorph)

7/23/18

The curious case of the PKK

While Islamic State and Al Qaeda are predictably the two most internationally designated terror groupsacross the globe, the third may come as a surprise.

The Kurdish Workers Party, known widely by the acronym PKK, has been on the terrorist list of major countries across the globe for some decades.

Yet the US, Australia and European nations have been arming, training and supporting branches of this group in Syria and Iraq.

PKK are secular with a unique ideology that centres around somewhat Marxist views with a major focus on the empowerment of women.

Established by leader Abdullah Ocalan in 1978, the group took up arms in 1984 with the aim of creating an autonomous Kurdish state in Turkey by force.

But while PKK does pose an ongoing threat to Turkish national security, they have posed no threat to the majority of nations that have designated them as terrorists.

The decision was a political move to appease NATO partner Turkey, Mr Lister said, adding, "the crux of the whole problem is just how political the designation is".

Yet after arming them in the fight against another designated terrorist group, Islamic State, Australia, the US and others have not removed PKK from their terror lists.

Mr Lister said it was not a question of their relevance in the fight against IS.

"Whether we like it or not — legally the PKK are a terrorist organisation so these countries should be basing their decisions according to their own laws," he said.

"We designated them for political reasons but we also chose to ignore the designation for political reasons."

"If we can choose to ignore it the entire act of designation seems to be in question."

Continued

In reply toRe: msg 6
Jenifer (Zarknorph)
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From: Jenifer (Zarknorph)

7/23/18

Insurgents or terrorists?

"Increasingly, what we label terrorist groups or fighting terrorism is really just insurgencies within civil, local or regional conflicts," Mr Lister said.

While groups like Al Qaeda may speak of a global jihad, on a local level for those who join this movement "it's not about bombing New York it's about protecting their villages", he added.

But attacks on such groups by foreign states can motivate terrorist ambitions abroad.

Designating them as terrorist organisations stifled negotiation and created an us versus them mentality, said Joost Hiltermann, International Crisis Group MENA program director.

"It is short-sighted and self-defeating to not be open to the idea that these groups can evolve and can be made to evolve," Mr Hiltermann told the ABC.

"This is a better strategy than seeking to defeat them, which can be very difficult when they have popular local support."

Blocking negotiations through labels makes it difficult to pursue a peaceful solution.

We need to start looking at the root causes that make them locally relevant, Mr Lister said.

"Until we start to broaden our understanding of what these movements are, we are going to continue to play whack-a-mole, which is what we have been doing for years."

In reply toRe: msg 7
Jenifer (Zarknorph)
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From: Jenifer (Zarknorph)

7/23/18

The old adage 'one man't terrorist is another man's freedom fighter' comes to mind.

Personally I draw the line at deliberately targeting innocent civilians.

Ariana Grande was not training soldiers in Manchester.

Di (amina046)

From: Di (amina046)

7/25/18

I have seldom heard a more succinct and still well thought out explanation. Both Mr. Lister and Hiltermann make a most important case for a review of those designation.

they are indeed counterproductive and misleading. As you say, where is the thin line between terrorism and freedom fight? The latest and totally irrational case being the PKK.(the Kurds have been used by all of their neighbours and Europe and the US) .

The MauMau were considered terrorists while they were fighting for their independance, so were Algeria and Tunisia’s freedom fighters.

If I were to list all the terrorist groups of Israel who killed and mauled for their independandce, as are Hamas and Hezbollah.

Afghanistan did not invite the British, the USSR nor the US. The latter got BinLaden to organise their attack.

so yes, someone has to start rethinking, the UN has the votes but not the teeth, of how we could negotiate without this label, which is the first impediment to any success.

Jenifer (Zarknorph)
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From: Jenifer (Zarknorph)

7/25/18

By expanding terrorism to include acts like what happened in Charlottesville, there is the danger of an umbrella law that sees any random act from an unhinged mind looking at life in Guantanamo Bay with no trial.

Would it include any mass shooting?  Any car driven through pedestrians?

We also have to face the truth that if we hear an Arabic name - we immediately assume it's terrorism.

Jenifer (Zarknorph)
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From: Jenifer (Zarknorph)

7/28/18

This is a perfect example.

Three dead after 'emotionally disturbed' man shoots 14 in Toronto

The story is there

Then there is this headline...

Police name Faisal Hussain as Toronto gunman in shooting that killed 2 and injured 13

And what is the first thing that enters your mind?

There is still no link to terrorism, he is still the same mentally disturbed man he was in the first headline.

But his name changes everything.

Di (amina046)

From: Di (amina046)

7/28/18

I know. It is devastating.

Jenifer (Zarknorph)
Host

From: Jenifer (Zarknorph)

7/29/18

I have to admit, as soon as I read his name I thought "Ah, death to the infidels, of course."

But I have NO further information and there has been no news about it today.

But this is where we are in the world.

RGoss99

From: RGoss99

7/29/18

Two interesting posts.

The problema is that "terrorism" as commonly used by both the ignorant and those who should know better, boils down to any act that causes terror.

This is false, terror is terror.

An "-ism" is a belief, and an "-ist" is one who acts on that belief.

So terrorism is a belief, or the act of a terrorist, which both causes terror, and carries with it a message, to affect the behavior of those who are victims, or afraid of such.

Here is an example labeled as terroristic by someone on the net, addressed to me because my community is 10% Muslim.

"Young muslim´s car jumps curb and people are injured" Act of terror, possibility, but because of anti Islamic propaganda, many jump to that confusión. Adding other bits of ignorance to

justify their prejudice. One example, Muslims are poor, don´t own cars, so this guy must be supported by some terrorist cell.

Fact, yes Muslims are poor, but if you know Young Muslims, their financial priorities are quite different from what one might expect. 1. a lot of their earnings go to support families in their home country. As a result many who come here are single men, who to sabe money share living space, and to get to work on Schedule, go in togather to share a car.

Fact. The Muslim in his early 20s, had just gotten his license and Access to a car a week ahead of of the event. Unlike the non Muslim population, as a kid he had Little opportunity to model his driving skills on his parents.

As with all traffic accidents, the pólice investigated and charged him with unsafe driving, because he lost control of his car. No evidence that he did it on purpose, or that he aimed at harming anyone.

E.g. the propaganda and prejudice declared the kid guilty without any facts to support it besides Young Muslim. (see answer to next post related).

RGoss99

From: RGoss99

7/29/18

Basicly you answered your own question. The "so many" itself is an unstatisticly vague assumption based on media coverage. Terrorism is sort of thefruit of the month, with Islam the default, which the stats don´t figure. By Count the majority of terrorist actions in the U.S. were committed by native born White Americans with Christian backgrounds, some motivated by a faulty interpretation of Christianity, just as 9-11, Barcelona, etc. actions are neither supported by the Koran, nor the major of Islamic religious and political leaders.

Further comments.

While not denying the criminality, and wrongness of their actions, it depends on where one stands. Kurds, IRA, Basques, Palestinian, and some other terririst activities are motivated by what are essentially freedom movements against foreign forces that are interfering with their right of self detrmination. Not much different then the Free French fighting the Germans in France after it had been over run. At the time, in most cases, these are considered heros to their own people, labled terrorists by the outsiders. The problema is if the struggle goes on for too long, or the solution is not complete or perverted, terrorism becomes a way of life, so it is very different to get the terrorists, romantic heros to their own people to stand down.

Another factor is that some terrorist groups are encouraged by outside forces for reasons, of their own, then once in the field, and after they discover the motives of their supporters, they turn on them.

Example the U.S. supported terrorism by Afghanis and AQ against the Russians. The U.S. supported corrupt governments in Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama, Viet Nam, Iraq, Iran, and is currently supporting a corrupt government in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan--not because we love them and want to help them but because we have something personal to gain from this support.

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