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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons, particularly in larger calibres (12.7+mm).

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Exploring The Design Space   Ammunition <20mm

Started 25/7/15 by NathanielF; 101079 views.
QuintusO

From: QuintusO

10-Aug

I agree with Red that I think the Indian Army is using 7.62x39 as an excuse to procure a different rifle than the INSAS. There may also be some complaints about the effectiveness of 5.56x45 INSAS, but I doubt that is the overriding concern.

7.62x39 is not a very good rifle caliber by today's standards. It is fairly small and lightweight, but it does not offer as favorable performance as other designs. It suffers poor drop and drift, and its lethality in FMJ format is among the worst of any military rifle caliber still in widespread use (including 5.56). Only .30 Carbine M1 Ball and 7.92x33 Kz.Ptr.SmE 43 are inferior, among military rifle calibers. 

However, from what I understand, India only has in service three rifle calibers: 5.56 INSAS, 7.62x39, and 7.62x51. This substantially limits their options, and if neither of the other two are deemed acceptable, then 7.62x39 is the default.

Other calibers do exist, there's the 5.45x39 and 5.8x42, and the 6.5x38 in limited service with Serbia. But it does not sound like the Indian services are interested in a caliber other than 7.62x39.

Ultimately, the Indian defense machine is very likely to do whatever enriches itself, and not whatever is best for the soldier. That's how they got decades of the INSAS, and I don't see that cycle stoping now.

alexsoddy

From: alexsoddy

10-Aug

Do you think Mitch Shoffner's 6.5x40 cartridge (based on the SPC case) is superior to the 7.62x39 mm Soviet ? And should the IA consider it ?

If not the 6.5x40, would the 6x44 mm cartridge(that you designed) be a good successor to the 7.62x39 mm ?

I attach an excerpt from an article written by a Lt. Gen in the IA. This perhaps seems to be summarize why IA doesn't like the 5.56x45 mm cartridge.  Source: https://www.news18.com/blogs/india/lt-gen-syed-ata-hasnain/the-army-desperately-needs-to-upgrade-its-family-of-small-arms-14405-1236056.html

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

10-Aug

While in theory that story "could happen" under some very weird and freakish circumstances I'm still going to outright call bullshit.

That general is straight up "making shit up".

Beings as India is very unlikely to buy actual good 7.62x39, you guys are probably looking at warmed over m43 rounds at best which have been known to have inferior lethality and true effective range compared to 5.56 since Vietnam.

Actually buying 5.56 ammo that's better than m855 is probably the best answer for the IA since modern 5.56 is more than capable at 500 meters plus from a 16" barrel. 5.45 would also give this kinda range and performance (again provided you bought good ammunition).

As has already been said, 7.62x39 is Virtually the worst choice you can make and no amount of wildly implausible stories from generals will change that.

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

10-Aug

There is no military spec for the 6.5 Schoffner. You might as well design an entirely new round.

India will go with 7.62x39. That may not be the smart thing to do, but I don't have a lot of faith that there are any alternatives. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not an Indian dompol expert.

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

10-Aug

Like unless you have some special insider knowledge, their minds appear to be made up already. Those who might object are probably ready to accept anything to make the pain of INSAS stop.

alexsoddy

From: alexsoddy

10-Aug

Yes, you are correct in your analysis. The primary motivation seems to be to keep out any product made by the socialist factories. Other concerns are secondary.

A private company named SSS Defence hopes to jump in with its product in case the AK-203 deal collapses. It has been reported that the Russians are demanding a royalty of $200 for every AK 203 produced in India. This seems to be a deal breaker.

More about the product from SSS Defence: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/02/18/defexpo-2020-new-series-of-sniper-and-assault-rifles-from-sss-defense/

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

10-Aug

And, given the disastrous service of the INSAS, and the OFB's seeming unwillingness to address issues, that seems wiser than adding risk with a new round.

Hopefully they decide to use a more effective projectile design such as M67 or something else for the 7.62x39, so they are not totally SOL.

Red7272

From: Red7272

10-Aug

alexsoddy said:

A private company named SSS Defence hopes to jump in with its product in case the AK-203 deal collapses. It has been reported that the Russians are demanding a royalty of $200 for every AK 203 produced in India. This seems to be a deal breaker.

Or The Russians declined to pay the kickbacks that were expected and now the contract has fallen though. Someone will get rich on an indigenous design that will fail in the same way as the INAS and India will be left buying foreign guns to arm their important units while everyone else struggles with the most recent potato.

alexsoddy

From: alexsoddy

2-Sep

For the 6x44 mm, what made you choose the 6mm Unified projectile ?

In what way is it superior to a scaled up 7N6(M) projectile ?

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

3-Sep

It's a bit like a scaled up 7N22 projectile. But I used it simply because I was playing around with it at the time. Far better bullets both I have designed since and have been manufactured commercially.

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