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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons, particularly in larger calibres (12.7+mm).

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US 30 to 50 mm developments   Ammunition 20-57mm

Started 16/5/19 by autogun; 6509 views.
autogun

From: autogun

22/5/19

dskellogg said...

There is this developmental system, EAPS, wherein they utilize a noticeably NOT 50mm Supershot,

The 50mm EAPS uses the same 50 x 330 cartridge case as the original German Supershot, but the steerable projectile protrudes much further from the case, to the same overall round length as the 40 mm Bofors L/70. The Bushmaster III gun, which can handle 35 x 228, 50 x 330 Supershot and the new 50 x 228 S50 with little more than a barrel swap cannot therefore handle EAPS. Instead, the EAPS Bushmaster was developed on the basis of the experimental Bushmaster IV (40mm L/70) and is a mixture of parts from the Bushy III and IV.

The problem with a gun able to fire the extended EAPS ammo is that it is very big, which impacts the ammo capacity of any given mounting (it will be little smaller than the 40mm L/70). Difficult to say at this stage whether it would be worth doing.

 

Red7272

From: Red7272

22/5/19

Looking at the 40L70, basing that round on the 50 mm supershot seems a poor decision. 

This is a very quick and dirty 50 mm bofors with the same OAL. Just scaling the 40 mm projectile up to 50 mm gives an idea of what is practical without resorting to a 57 mm round which is much larger again.

It would require a somewhat straighter case but otherwise does look practical. The rim diameter and the OAL would be the only immutable factors.

 

 

Edit.

As you can see from this much less ambiguous depiction of the EAPS round, A 50L70 should be quite practical. 

 

  • Edited 22 May 2019 14:23  by  Red7272
autogun

From: autogun

22/5/19

Nice job. It would certainly appear feasible.

 

In reply toRe: msg 20
autogun

From: autogun

22/5/19

Coincidentally, this article has appeared:

(Source: TASS; published May 21, 2019)
MOSCOW --- Russia’s military hardware armed with 57mm caliber guns will securely strike modern and future foreign light-and medium-armored vehicles, Editor-in-Chief of the Arsenal of the Fatherland journal Viktor Murakhovsky told TASS on Tuesday.
The 57mm munitions also boost the possibilities of fighting enemy air targets and manpower, he added.

Deputy CEO of the Russian engineering firm Tecmash (part of the state hi-tech corporation Rostec) Alexander Kochkin told TASS earlier on Tuesday that Russia was considering rearming light-and medium-armored vehicles from their basic 30mm caliber to 57mm guns.

"Proceeding from the ballistic capabilities of these [57mm] munitions, especially their new types, they will securely pierce the front armor of foreign light-and medium armored vehicles at effective fire ranges," Murakhovsky said.

The basic 30mm caliber for the Russian armor is no longer effective against advanced foreign armored vehicles, the chief editor said.

"The British [infantry fighting vehicle] from BAE Systems, the German and promising US vehicles, on which they have recently reopened their program [the Next-Generation Combat Vehicle, NGCV], according to their specifications and trials, can withstand, as they claim, frontal armor hits by 30mm projectiles, moreover, at distances of 100-150 m, i.e. point-blank," Murakhovsky said.

Russia is already developing some weapon systems with this caliber, the chief editor said.

"The previous Army forum [defense exhibition] already featured a module with such caliber firepower mounted on the heavy T-15 IFV and such developments are underway for the medium-class platforms. It is, in principle, possible to mount such a module on the Kurganets and even the Bumerang platform, although with a smaller ammunition load. The 57mm caliber can also be used for an anti-aircraft system. I mean the Derivatsiya-PVO weapon," he said.

57mm munitions feature increased firepower to strike manpower and aircraft, such as drones, loitering and guided munitions, combat helicopters, attack planes and other low-speed and low-flying targets, Murakhovsky said.

Prospects

The new Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang combat platforms and battlefield air defense missile systems, such as the Derivatsiya-PVO weapons, will be armed with the 57mm guns, in the first place, the expert said.

"I am confident that eventually there will be options for modernizing previous-generation military hardware, I mean the BMPT [tank support combat vehicle] and the variants for upgrading IFVs, first of all, the BMP-2 IFV," the expert noted, outlining the prospects of the new caliber in the troops.

At the same time, the expert said he did not expect large-scale rearmament of the previous-generation military hardware with the new caliber. "I believe this will be offered as an option," he explained. "Besides, this is also difficult financially."

"The defense budget is not boundless. The land troops and the Airborne Force, in which this caliber will be largely used, are not as financially provided as other branches of the Armed Forces. That is why, I think that the switchover to the 57mm caliber will take quite a long time," the expert pointed out.

The expert stressed, however, that the new caliber will find its application in the troops. "Considering that intensive work is underway to develop these munitions, including guided and air burst projectiles, I believe that the caliber has very good prospects," the expert stressed.
 
renatohm

From: renatohm

22/5/19

How much more effective would a 50mm AP be over a 30mm?

And how much effective would a 57mm AP be?

Red7272

From: Red7272

22/5/19

renatohm said...

How much more effective would a 50mm AP be over a 30mm?

And how much effective would a 57mm AP be?

50x228 not much at all. The advantage of the 50 over the parent 35 - if any - is unknown, and the 35x228 only adds about 25% compared to 30x173.

The 60 mm IMI in the 80s could penetrate 240 mm.

renatohm

From: renatohm

22/5/19

Thanks for the info.

Which was the IMI 60 parent caliber?

Red7272

From: Red7272

22/5/19

renatohm said...

Which was the IMI 60 parent caliber?

There is some debate, but it was an older 76 mm with the case shortened. The extra penetration comes with a lot of downsides.

40 mm CT, 35x228, 50 mm supershot, 40L70, Russian 57 mm and the IMI 60 mm

 

  • Edited 22 May 2019 19:58  by  Red7272
autogun

From: autogun

23/5/19

Red7272 said...

renatohm said...

Which was the IMI 60 parent caliber?

There is some debate, but it was an older 76 mm with the case shortened.

No debate, just some incorrect info. It is commonly stated that the 60 mm was based on the 76 mm OTO Melara, presumably an assumption made since OTO was involved in both. However, as you can see on the ammo data tables on my site, the 60 mm case has a rim diameter of 104 mm, the 76 mm OTO is 114 mm. The 60 mm was actually based on the postwar US 76 mm M32 tank gun round, as used in the M41 Walker Bulldog light tank. This was used by several countries and it was presumably seen as an advantage that the M32 could be converted to fire 60 mm by a simple barrel swap. No M41 user actually did that, though.

The group ammo photo above (from my ammo photo gallery) shows that the 50 x 330 Supershot case was able to hold more propellant than the 35 x 228 due to the puller sabot design. The new 50 x 228 does not have that advantage.

Red7272

From: Red7272

23/5/19

autogun said...

The group ammo photo above (from my ammo photo gallery) shows that the 50 x 330 Supershot case was able to hold more propellant than the 35 x 228 due to the puller sabot design. The new 50 x 228 does not have that advantage.

I just grabbed it off the internet but assumed it was yours :)   And yes, the Supershot was only going to be firing saboted 35 mm projectiles in addition to the 50 mm APFSDS IIRC. The EAPS will have the advantage of longer APFSDS and a significant 50 mm HE round to go with its much increased OAL. 

 

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