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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons, particularly in larger calibres (12.7+mm).

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US 30 to 50 mm developments   Ammunition 20-57mm

Started 16/5/19 by autogun; 6515 views.
poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

25/6/19

Tony, what would be the target which justify a guided 40-50mm shell?

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

25/6/19

The folks working on the 57mm ALAMO round for anti-boat swarms applications obviously disagree about the minimum projectile size.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

25/6/19

Farmplinker said...

The folks working on the 57mm ALAMO round for anti-boat swarms applications obviously disagree about the minimum projectile size.

Sure they do because they get lots of money for it.

A 57 mm as is allready is highly effective against boats or swarms of them. Add airburst and it becomes brutal effective. It just makes no sense to devlope a guided shell that trades half of its payload (he and fragment material - comparison of ORKA Shell with 3P shell). ALAMO is not even autonomous the target needs to be painted and only the final approach is self guided.

Concentional autocannon based CIWS can engage multiple boats in rapid succession with an extremly high chance of a kill with each short burst. The ability of Alamo is limited by the availability of painting systems. Which will severly limited in number because they are expensive.

Boats are dirt cheap shooting guided weapons at them that are as or even more expensive makes no sense.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

25/6/19

Phalanx 20mm= 1 km.

Goalkeeper 30mm= 2km.

Various small boat adapted ATGMs= 2.5+ km.

I love CIWS, but sometimes you need more range.

ZailC

From: ZailC

25/6/19

One and two kilometer ranges for Phalanx and Goalkeeper are for hard-nosed terminal phase anti-ship missiles. Triple those ranges against surface targets and they still have very high effectiveness.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27/6/19

Farmplinker said...

Phalanx 20mm= 1 km.

Goalkeeper 30mm= 2km.

Various small boat adapted ATGMs= 2.5+ km.

I love CIWS, but sometimes you need more range.

 

ZailC said...

One and two kilometer ranges for Phalanx and Goalkeeper are for hard-nosed terminal phase anti-ship missiles. Triple those ranges against surface targets and they still have very high effectiveness.

Exactly. The effective range of the 57 mm Borfors is given as 8500 m in the sources I have access too.
The effective range of guns firing 30x173 mm like Goalkeeper is usually given as 3000 m in a naval context. For modern ammo like Mk264 MPLD an effective range of 5000 in a naval context is claimed by the manufacturer.
The MLG27 a weapon system specifically designed for short range anti surface defense with AA work as secondary function has an effective range against small fast moving surface targets of 2500 m. Against slow or larger surface targets its 4000 m. This weapon replaced the manual operated 20 mm AC mounted on German warships. The effective range of the 20x139 was 2000 m.

Even the effective range of Phalanx is currently given as 1500 m with no specifics for its anti surface range.

Boat mounted ATGMs are not really the problem. Without stabilised optics or a serious FCS in general a fast moving small boat is not an effective an stable firing platform for ATGMs at extended ranges.
Typical Boghammars are armed with rapid fire weapons to compensate for the lack of FCS. Often manually launched RPGs are used as well. To hit a warship sized target the boats have to get very close. Under 1000 m. Well inside the effectice range of CIWS. Even manual operated deck mounted MGs are effective at this range.
More sofisticated Boghammars are of course possible but since these will be significantly more expensive they will most likely not be available in large numbers and because of this not wasted in swarm attacks.

The real danger of swarm attacks is not HMG, AC, RPG or ATGM fire. These are a nuisance for a modern navy. Nothing more. Chances to bring down a frigate, corvette or FAC are practically zero. The threat comes from suicide attacks. Boats packed with explosives.

Should the effective range of AC based systems not be enough practically all western warships carry a large caliber gun. 76, 100 or 127 mm. These have significant rang and with airbursts can cover large areas with shrapnel. To which Boghammars are extremy vulnurable. Concidering the range, ROF and payload these guns deliver even Boghammars trying a stand off attack with ATGMs will have a hard time.

Not too long ago I talked to a member of the German Navy who had participated in anti piracy opperations. I asked about boats and swarm attacks. He said the real problem is not shooting at them and killing them but detecting them and getting a LOS. Since the boats are very low above water very often the waves of the ocean are higher. Identyfing them, tracking and hitting becomes very difficult. Radar often is not helpfull. Observers and spotters have to be used. There are weather conditions that make spotting difficult or impossible. While stand off firepower is nice. To effectively defend against small boats short range firepower is extremly important. Because of the LOS problem the go to ammo against small boats is FSDS ammo of some sort because this can penetrate trough waves and hit the boat in a wave trough regardless. While HE types would set of when hitting water. The alternative is airburst.

The real problems spoting, identifying, tracking and hitting small and fast boats are not adressed by medium caliber PGMs. They might offer an extension of the engagement range but range is not the problem at all. The medium and long range bracked is covered by all sorts of weapons allready anyways. The short range bracked in wich combat with small fast boats most likely will happen is the problem. Here ROF and tracking matters more than allmost anything else.

autogun

From: autogun

27/6/19

schnuersi said...

To effectively defend against small boats short range firepower is extremly important. Because of the LOS problem the go to ammo against small boats is FSDS ammo of some sort because this can penetrate trough waves and hit the boat in a wave trough regardless.

Specifically, the super-cavitating "hydroballistic" 30 x 173 FSDS which keep going in a straight line through waves with a relatively small velocity loss.

 

In reply toRe: msg 45
dskellogg

From: dskellogg

14/8/19

It gets more interesting....   MASS GHLM Guided Hard Launched Munition, 45mm aircraft (cannon fired) conceptual ammunition.

Would really like to see the preliminary concept gun(s) intended to fire it...

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2019/fuze/21775_Schumacher.pdf

 

autogun

From: autogun

14/8/19

Interesting indeed.

The shape of the 45 mm rounds shown on slide 8 resembles a necked-up 40 mm Bofors.

I can't see any explanation for the meaning of MASS, or of why the projectiles have much better ballistic coefficients.

 

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