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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons, particularly in larger calibres (12.7+mm).

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US 30 to 50 mm developments   Ammunition 20-57mm

Started 16/5/19 by autogun; 6516 views.
taschoene

From: taschoene

18/5/19

There isn't much, if any, difference in APFSDS performance between 35x228 and 50x228.  Similar case volume pushing a wider sabot and more or less the same dart.  The advantage of the larger caliber is mainly in the 50mm HE Airburst (HEAB) round, which has much more volume for explosive fill and fuze than the 35mm.

renatohm

From: renatohm

18/5/19

Any idea on how much a 50mm HE shell would weigh?

Wessels3

From: Wessels3

19/5/19

Any idea on how much a 50mm HE shell would weigh?

Guestimate: 1500 gram? Maybe slightly more?

fanofboard

From: fanofboard

19/5/19

The Rheinmetall handbook has guidlines for HE rounds:

As for mass: m = (13...15)*d³

m in kg; d in dm

wich gives us 1.625 kg to 1.875 kg.

autogun

From: autogun

19/5/19

The Oerlikon Pocket-Book (1981) includes tables of a whole family of proposed rounds from 35 mm to 60 mm; the 50 mm rounds weigh 1.55 kg. 

The 50 x 355 Oerlikon 501 MK of the 1950s (developed to meet a USN requirement) had a projectile weight of 1.52 kg.

OTOH, the S50 is a much smaller cartridge than these.

 

renatohm

From: renatohm

19/5/19

Thanks for the reply, also thank you Fan and Tony.

So we're looking at a ~1.5 kg (lower limit) up to ~1.8 kg (upper limit), obviously subject to format and length limits imposed by the COAL of the parent cartridge.

That's potentially triple the weight of the 35mm shell - a most impressive increase.

Even if it's 'only' 1.375 kg, that's still 2.5 times the parent's weight!

Red7272

From: Red7272

19/5/19

renatohm said...

So we're looking at a ~1.5 kg (lower limit) up to ~1.8 kg (upper limit), obviously subject to format and length limits imposed by the COAL of the parent cartridge.

That's potentially triple the weight of the 35mm shell - a most impressive increase.

Even if it's 'only' 1.375 kg, that's still 2.5 times the parent's weight!

With a flat based projectile and a reduced ogive, 1,300 ish grams looks practical. MV though will be sub 1,000 mps. 

In reply toRe: msg 15
dskellogg

From: dskellogg

21/5/19

Hmmmm..... Am curious to know the scalability (internal volume to allow a larger breech mechanism and feed assemblies) if the chosen 50mm Chain Gun variant....    

There is this developmental system, EAPS, wherein they utilize a noticeably NOT 50mm Supershot, but rather what they sometimes refer to as an "optimized" cartridge, in EAPS to launch a course-corrected (steerable) projectile. At one point in development, a warhead design path shown depicted a multi-projectile EFP approach: various configurations with forward-ejecting EFP fragments in a pattern with the intent of being able to pierce thick-shelled mortar rounds and even artillery projectiles.

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2010/armament/WednesdayLandmarkAArthurAeberli.pdf

https://www.army.mil/article/156634/army_engineers_demonstrate_anti_drone_technology

An approach akin to the 35mm AHEADS but in 50mm could make for an interesting anti-almost-everything-airborne munition, especially if the EAPS round could steer it into a more ideal detonation vicinity nearer the target.

Granted, EAPS in gun form explored a twin-gun configuration..... but a majority of modern turret developments for AFV chassis certainly seem like a single-gun capable of the 50mm EAPS class "Optimized" ammunition (a family of it) certainly seems like a lot of future-proof overmatch: anti-drone / anti helicopter, C-RAM, anti vehicle with APFSDS, HEDP, or dedicated HEAT.... programmable airburst for anti-personnel and light/non-armored vehicles.

Potential.  But worth the development? Is it far off from what could be achieved in a revisit to the Italian and Israeli 60mm guns, which do feature noticeably larger cases... Doesn't seem like it would be much lower in performance compared to current russian developments of vehicle-mounted AU-220M 57mm-based gun systems.

 

Red7272

From: Red7272

21/5/19

dskellogg said...

Granted, EAPS in gun form explored a twin-gun configuration..... but a majority of modern turret developments for AFV chassis certainly seem like a single-gun capable of the 50mm EAPS class "Optimized" ammunition (a family of it) certainly seems like a lot of future-proof overmatch: anti-drone / anti helicopter, C-RAM, anti vehicle with APFSDS, HEDP, or dedicated HEAT.... programmable airburst for anti-personnel and light/non-armored vehicles.

The size of the round in those articles looks prohibitive, and the actual power of the round is unclear. The Russian solution is also a guided projectile for the 57 mm.

The 35 mm KDE with 32 rounds on mount. A 50 mm Supershot version would only be slightly larger. 

The 60 mm IMI is vastly larger.

 

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