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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 553323 views.
EmericD

From: EmericD

15/8/21

QuintusO said:

You could have compared 40x53mm to 25x59mmB, and noted the velocity increase of 80 percent for the 25mm AGL. I wonder why you chose not to?

Because the XM25 is firing the 25x40 mm round and not the "high velocity" version?

I mean, there is enough 40x46 mm in service (which are really "low velocity"), so if the point of Roguetechie was that the US wanted to replace / supplement the 40x46 mm with a XM25 derivative (instead of adopting the M32, with a substantial increase of the velocity and reduction of the ToF), he would have write it that way.

stancrist

From: stancrist

15/8/21

roguetechie said:

So the fun part of sten's additions to the conversation is they are a mental trap designed to lure certain individuals here into thinking yeah thinking a certain bullet diameter is somehow intrinsically better is stupid!

Not seeing how that matters.  Sten's post was mostly about the supposed superiority of 7mm caliber, which is bigger than the 6.8mm caliber of NGSW.

roguetechie said:

So is trying to slavishly recreate an old thing no matter how much it's just not actually going to work for your new application and or platform because it's just inherently unsuitable for modern use!

That's rather vague.  Who is trying to slavishly recreate what old thing?  Are you referring to Cris Murray's attempt to sell his 7mm UIAC?  Or something else?

Sten556

From: Sten556

15/8/21

7mm is 6.8mm is .277

It's simple

EmericD

From: EmericD

15/8/21

7 mm (bore) is .284" (bullet).

Sten556

From: Sten556

15/8/21

Which is further than 7mm than .277, so it's misnamed. This is a case where the so called "official" nomenclature is incorrect. Unless of-course 7.214mm is closer to 7mm than 7.04mm.

stancrist

From: stancrist

15/8/21

It is you who is incorrect.  You're displaying ignorance of the difference between caliber and bullet diameter.

     7.62mm / .30 caliber = 7.82mm / .308" bullet diameter

     7mm / .28 caliber = 7.21mm / .284 bullet diameter

     6.8mm / .27 caliber = 7.04mm / .277" bullet diameter

7.62mm NATO, 7mm Mauser, 7mm UIAC, and 6.8mm SPC are caliber designations, not their bullet diameters.

Caliber is measured between the lands of the rifling, not the bullet diameter.

  • Edited 15 August 2021 10:47  by  stancrist
Sten556

From: Sten556

15/8/21

First it's bullet diameter that matter, it's self evident enough. Second, even using the incorrect terminology and using bore diameter in both ways of measuring it (grooves or lands) .277 is still closer to a true 7mm. Trying to steal the limelight of the superior caliber by taking its name is the sort of underhanded tactic the Grendel cabal used to kill off the competition.

Unless you can prove a number further away from 7mm is actually closer to 7mm, then you're wrong and will remain wrong.

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

15/8/21

The M32 doesn't fire 40x53mm. It fires (in addition to 40x46mm) 40x51mm, which has a muzzle velocity of 100 m/s. It doesn't fire 40x53mm, because 40x53mm is too powerful to shoulder fire due to its heavy projectile, which is THE ENTIRE POINT of the 25x40mmB, to marry AGL-like muzzle velocities with a smart optic.

So you are literally comparing a shoulder fired gun to a tripod mounted crew served AGL and saying "oh yeah if muzzle velocity was so important with computer gunsights why did the US Army  dramatically reduce the projectile mass of the 25x40mm to achieve a V0 that isn't even quite as high as an AGL's? Checkmate, atheists!"

At this point, if I were you I'd just claim I was trolling all along, because that's dumb as hell, dude.

stancrist

From: stancrist

15/8/21

Sten556 said:

First it's bullet diameter that matter, it's self evident enough.

That you believe it is "self evident" is why you're wrong.  Since the 19th century, the standard practice for military small arms caliber designation has been to use the distance between the rifling lands, not the bullet diameter.

Sten556 said:

Second, even using the incorrect terminology and using bore diameter in both ways of measuring it (grooves or lands) .277 is still closer to a true 7mm.

Irrelevant.

Sten556 said:

Trying to steal the limelight of the superior caliber by taking its name is the sort of underhanded tactic the Grendel cabal used to kill off the competition.

ROFL. 

Sten556 said:

Unless you can prove a number further away from 7mm is actually closer to 7mm, then you're wrong and will remain wrong.

Then explain why Cris Murray named it 6.8mm SPC instead of 7mm SPC.

----------

P.S.  It always amused me when 6.8 SPC fans would point to the .276 Pedersen and say, "See, the US Army almost adopted a 6.8mm cartridge in the 1930s."  The .276 Pedersen is a 7mm cartridge, not a 6.8mm, but those fan boys were as ignorant of caliber designation as you are.  (.276 is the caliber, not the bullet diameter.)

  • Edited 15 August 2021 12:29  by  stancrist
Sten556

From: Sten556

15/8/21

Because of the stupid convention in place, self evident, it's not to those, well limited.

You're denying reality, bullet matters, bore is merely the convention, fact. Don't like it, you don't like reality. 6.8 or .277 or the true 7mm as it should be called is still closer to the ideal caliber of 7mm, regardless of the number, you cannot contradict this. You say irrelevant, but you miss the point of why that size... maybe reality is irrelevant for those that live in lala land. And lastly, the "convention" being "official" or whatever doesn't magically make it right... it's not... it's just that a convention.

Yeah deny all the mud that Bill and his acolytes have thrown over people doing good work. Denialism, again is a symptom of those disconnected from reality. But then reality doesn't care about you and the true 7mm caliber will be vindicated as the NGSW rolls out.

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