roguetechie said:

between a 22 and 24 inch barrel that does oh let's say no more than 2600 fps and is let's just call it between 270 and 280 caliber.

Ha. Sten556 is your sock puppet! I see it all now.

I wish I was that talented.

Yes, it turns out both trajectory and time of flight are important. 

If you can't hit what you're aiming at (and even 40x53 needs you to direct hit if you're trying to bust things like VBIED's) your shots are essentially wasted.

But again, none of this was actually ABOUT the whole 40x53 versus xm25 thing... (That's an interesting topic on it's own though especially since the Chinese have done some interesting work in this area)

I love that rather than understand that an example is an example this forum's rather predictable response is to uselessly chase Their tails beating the example to death rather than Actually address the real issue I was bringing up.

Well played sirs, you have once again fended off someone's best attempts to have a useful and productive conversation.

I trust you are proud of yourselves.

roguetechie said:

Yes, it turns out both trajectory and time of flight are important. 

???  Since I said nothing like that, your statement makes no sense as a response to my post.

roguetechie said:

If you can't hit what you're aiming at (and even 40x53 needs you to direct hit if you're trying to bust things like VBIED's) your shots are essentially wasted.

That's true of pretty much any infantry weapon.

roguetechie said:

But again, none of this was actually ABOUT the whole 40x53 versus xm25 thing...

Then you should not have brought it up.

roguetechie said:

I love that rather than understand that an example is an example this forum's rather predictable response is to uselessly chase Their tails beating the example to death rather than Actually address the real issue I was bringing up.

Your example was meant to substantiate your claim that "time of flight always matters" by making another claim that the reason for the Army's Precision Grenadier system is to get a shorter time of flight than the Mk47 gives.

I proved that you are wrong.  https://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages?msg=7519.1328

                                                     https://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages?msg=7519.1330

TIME OF FLIGHT DOES NOT ALWAYS MATTER.

I'm sure they'll end up using a handheld launcher in 40x53mm, then!

roguetechie said:

Yes, it turns out both trajectory and time of flight are important. 

This section level ability to engage at a km always gives me a migraine, especially now with so many other options than direct fire. Switchblade was a start and even integral to the squad, but no lets go with some enormous direct fire contraption that will be all but useless otherwise to provide this completely irrelevant capability. I mean they are probably shooting at a couple guys in a pile of rocks 1000 metres away who are now running since their job is done. Ignoring the fact that they don't particularly care if they die and there are no moral disadvantages to the enemy if the patrol kills them, what is the point?

A couple rounds of 60 or 81 mm prox will completely fuck up their day but that is apparently too low brow for the modern US army.

First, if the "couple guys" are running away, that's a pretty good indication they very much want to go on living.    If they "don't particularly care if they die", they would stay and fight.

Second, it is nearly impossible to hit one or two running individuals by lobbing "a couple rounds" at them from a mortar, due to the extremely high trajectory and long time of flight.

It would be far more sensible to engage such targets with direct fire by the unit in contact, which is one reason the 84mm Carl Gustaf is used at the squad level.

But, the Precision Grenadier System is intended to do more than give 1000-meter engagement capability.  Like the CG, the PGS is to be a multi-purpose weapon.

Switchblade does not provide that capability.

I know what you're saying and I pretty much agree.

Thr pike still costs well into 6 figure territory if you want to buy some while the chicom qn202 pike ripoff Is pretty much ready for purchase now and I guarantee you they don't cost 6 figures each.

This ability of people like china to take the 80% solution now while we keep playing with things until they're too expensive to ever be viable is going to bite us hard sooner than later.

Im very curious what you wind up sacrificing in order to put something like an xm25 in a given unit's  cumulative unit load out.

Or what else could you carry instead?

Is this even a capability that's necessary when the Turks are making autonomous flying claymores?

roguetechie said:

Im very curious what you wind up sacrificing in order to put something like an xm25 in a given unit's  cumulative unit load out

When I looked at various HE options, in order to prevent the HEman and the squad from being totally overburdened, you probably need to trade:

HE System + HE rounds = ditching 1x rifle and fireteam carried spare ammo for SAW.

So basic Symmetric Squad=

2x 4 man fireteams:

1x SAW gunner w/ 400-800rds depending on gun

1x Grenadier w/ rifle + 40mm + 7x mags + 12-24x 40mm

2x Rifleman w/ Rifle + 7x mags + spare 100-200rd belt for SAW

Asymmetric HE Squad:

1x regular fireteam as above (SAW, Grenadier, 2x rifleman)

1x HE fireteam:

SAW gunner w/ 400-800rds

HE gunner with 10-16lb HE system, small 3-5lb PDW, HE ammo 

2x Rifleman w/ 7x mags + spare HE ammo