gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3360
    MEMBERS
  • 191210
    MESSAGES
  • 1
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 553098 views.
stancrist

From: stancrist

16/8/21

roguetechie said:

Yes, it turns out both trajectory and time of flight are important. 

???  Since I said nothing like that, your statement makes no sense as a response to my post.

roguetechie said:

If you can't hit what you're aiming at (and even 40x53 needs you to direct hit if you're trying to bust things like VBIED's) your shots are essentially wasted.

That's true of pretty much any infantry weapon.

roguetechie said:

But again, none of this was actually ABOUT the whole 40x53 versus xm25 thing...

Then you should not have brought it up.

roguetechie said:

I love that rather than understand that an example is an example this forum's rather predictable response is to uselessly chase Their tails beating the example to death rather than Actually address the real issue I was bringing up.

Your example was meant to substantiate your claim that "time of flight always matters" by making another claim that the reason for the Army's Precision Grenadier system is to get a shorter time of flight than the Mk47 gives.

I proved that you are wrong.  https://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages?msg=7519.1328

                                                     https://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages?msg=7519.1330

TIME OF FLIGHT DOES NOT ALWAYS MATTER.

  • Edited 16 August 2021 16:04  by  stancrist
QuintusO

From: QuintusO

16/8/21

I'm sure they'll end up using a handheld launcher in 40x53mm, then!

stancrist

From: stancrist

16/8/21

How the Army's New 'Smart Scope' Works in Combat

Check out the GunMag Warehouse Youtube Channel and subscribe: https://bit.ly/3spZuy3How did we get to computer powered scopes that calculate bullet drop inst...

Red7272

From: Red7272

16/8/21

roguetechie said:

Yes, it turns out both trajectory and time of flight are important. 

This section level ability to engage at a km always gives me a migraine, especially now with so many other options than direct fire. Switchblade was a start and even integral to the squad, but no lets go with some enormous direct fire contraption that will be all but useless otherwise to provide this completely irrelevant capability. I mean they are probably shooting at a couple guys in a pile of rocks 1000 metres away who are now running since their job is done. Ignoring the fact that they don't particularly care if they die and there are no moral disadvantages to the enemy if the patrol kills them, what is the point?

A couple rounds of 60 or 81 mm prox will completely fuck up their day but that is apparently too low brow for the modern US army.

stancrist

From: stancrist

16/8/21

First, if the "couple guys" are running away, that's a pretty good indication they very much want to go on living.  wink  If they "don't particularly care if they die", they would stay and fight.

Second, it is nearly impossible to hit one or two running individuals by lobbing "a couple rounds" at them from a mortar, due to the extremely high trajectory and long time of flight.

It would be far more sensible to engage such targets with direct fire by the unit in contact, which is one reason the 84mm Carl Gustaf is used at the squad level.

But, the Precision Grenadier System is intended to do more than give 1000-meter engagement capability.  Like the CG, the PGS is to be a multi-purpose weapon.

Switchblade does not provide that capability.

  • Edited 16 August 2021 23:39  by  stancrist
roguetechie

From: roguetechie

17/8/21

I know what you're saying and I pretty much agree.

Thr pike still costs well into 6 figure territory if you want to buy some while the chicom qn202 pike ripoff Is pretty much ready for purchase now and I guarantee you they don't cost 6 figures each.

This ability of people like china to take the 80% solution now while we keep playing with things until they're too expensive to ever be viable is going to bite us hard sooner than later.

Im very curious what you wind up sacrificing in order to put something like an xm25 in a given unit's  cumulative unit load out.

Or what else could you carry instead?

Is this even a capability that's necessary when the Turks are making autonomous flying claymores?

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

17/8/21

roguetechie said:

Im very curious what you wind up sacrificing in order to put something like an xm25 in a given unit's  cumulative unit load out

When I looked at various HE options, in order to prevent the HEman and the squad from being totally overburdened, you probably need to trade:

HE System + HE rounds = ditching 1x rifle and fireteam carried spare ammo for SAW.

So basic Symmetric Squad=

2x 4 man fireteams:

1x SAW gunner w/ 400-800rds depending on gun

1x Grenadier w/ rifle + 40mm + 7x mags + 12-24x 40mm

2x Rifleman w/ Rifle + 7x mags + spare 100-200rd belt for SAW

Asymmetric HE Squad:

1x regular fireteam as above (SAW, Grenadier, 2x rifleman)

1x HE fireteam:

SAW gunner w/ 400-800rds

HE gunner with 10-16lb HE system, small 3-5lb PDW, HE ammo 

2x Rifleman w/ 7x mags + spare HE ammo 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

17/8/21

" NGSW-FC Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPrIN0Gie-U "

Great find Stan. That video does shine some light on the new optic thats been missing. 

Highlights:

- NGSW-FC optic is 2.5lbs

-FC is 1-6x scope; thing on the top that looks like a backup red dot is actually the laser range finder and other sensors 

-Optic includes both drop compensation and also some element of wind detection as well as rifle cant and position, and may also be able to provide a compass heading of where the rifle is aimed for directing fire 

- Officially rated for use out to 900m (may actually be further.)

-Can work with the new 1.5lb clip on Night Vision/Thermal optic and provide night time hits out to 700m 

Overall its an impressive capability. However the high weight of the optic, combined with the 7.62+ sized battle rifle its mounted upon, is really going to be a pig. 

Using SIG since they have the most published specs:

SIG Spear: 8.1lbs

SIG SRD762 Suppressor: 1.063lbs

NGSW-FC: 2.5lbs

20rd 7.62 PMAG w/ 22g assumed cartridge: 1.31lbs

Total: 12.97lbs 

This assumes that there will not be an additional IR laser illuminator or any other accessories on the rifle. 

For perspective, a M4A1 + ACOG + M203 grenade launcher + IR laser + loaded 30rd mag = 11.6lbs. This is not to say that this a better choice, but just to give a sense of how heavy a 12.97lb NGSW is - its heavier then a tricked out M4 w/ grenade launcher.

  • Edited 17 August 2021 2:19  by  gatnerd
Red7272

From: Red7272

17/8/21

stancrist said:

First, if the "couple guys" are running away, that's a pretty good indication they very much want to go on living.    If they "don't particularly care if they die", they would stay and fight. Second, it is nearly impossible to hit one or two running individuals by lobbing "a couple rounds" at them from a mortar, due to the extremely high trajectory and long time of flight.

That you don't understand insurgent tactics I find unsurprising. As for the practicality of hitting them with mortar fire there are a few billion mortar rounds and a hundred years of war that would disagree with you. 

stancrist

From: stancrist

17/8/21

gatnerd said:

HE System + HE rounds = ditching 1x rifle and fireteam carried spare ammo for SAW.

Asymmetric HE Squad

HE fireteam:

SAW gunner w/ 400-800rds

HE gunner with 10-16lb HE system, small 3-5lb PDW, HE ammo 

2x Rifleman w/ 7x mags + spare HE ammo

Concur with ditching one rifle per squad.

Non-concur with the other items above.

AFAIK, the grenadier -- whether armed with the M203, M320, XM25, or M32 -- is the only squad member who carries ammo for his weapon.  That means the two riflemen in the HE team could still carry spare ammo for the SAW.

Also, the US Army and USMC do not currently field a PDW, nor have I heard of any published plan to adopt one.  The available video and photos of XM25 grenadiers in Afghanistan show them to have no secondary weapon. 

101st Soldiers fielding XM-25, in AFG 2011 - YouTube

At best, the grenadier with a 15-lb weapon might carry a service pistol, like the Marine below appears to have.

  • Edited 17 August 2021 11:46  by  stancrist
TOP