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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 477721 views.
EmericD

From: EmericD

19/9/21

gatnerd said:

Do you think the M27/416 is capable of matching the LMG's performance out to 600m in the above 10rd burst scenario?

I think that the M27 will need to fire shorter burst for maximum effectiveness. The M27 is also equipped with an ACOG, that is also making a difference. You can mount an ACOG on a Minimi, but you can't expect to easily zero the scope with an open bolt / full auto LMG, or that the scope will keep it's zero every time you change a belt.

gatnerd said:

Now this is interesting - and also brings us back to the actual NGSW topic this thread has so greatly veered from.  Will the Tungsten DM151 be the standard load for the 7.62 DMR? And how does the DM151 compare to the M933 in terms of penetration of Level IV?

I would expect that the "standard" combat load in a peer-to-peer confrontation will be 4x20-rds mags loaded with AP and 2x10-rds mags loaded with "FMJ match" ammo (so 80% AP and 20% match).

The DM151 is "slightly" better than the M993 and could defeat most level IV at a minimum range of 200 m (when fired from the SCAR-H PR).

It's also prohibitively expensive.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

19/9/21

So in this case it's sort of one of those, the m27 is the one thing we're not hearing complaints about situations... So I'm kinda assuming it's doing well.

Aside from my personal dislike of the weapon because it's heavy, unnecessary, a PIP m4a2 would have been so much better, they die to m855a1 and I have to assume that the 417 doesn't like m80a1, and HK is evil... When you combine the 416 with even the trijicon and sig lpvo's backed up by marine rifleman training there's no reason they shouldn't be doing extremely well tbh.

stancrist

From: stancrist

20/9/21

roguetechie said:

So in this case it's sort of one of those, the m27 is the one thing we're not hearing complaints about situations... So I'm kinda assuming it's doing well.

I see.  I think I would view a lack of complaints as indicating the M27 is not doing poorly enough to gripe about, rather than doing amazingly well.

Or perhaps the M27 just has not been used in any serious fights?  This is the only M27 combat video I found:  https://youtu.be/81EgZ9asITs?t=95

Or maybe the reason we're not hearing complaints is simply because most of the guys who are using a M27, used to have to carry one of these...

roguetechie said:

Aside from my personal dislike of the weapon because it's heavy, unnecessary, a PIP m4a2 would have been so much better, they die to m855a1... When you combine the 416 with even the trijicon and sig lpvo's backed up by marine rifleman training there's no reason they shouldn't be doing extremely well tbh.

Hmm.  The two comments in bold seem mutually contradictory.  Unless the Corps has been limiting every M27 to a diet of M855 and/or Mk318?

  • Edited 20 September 2021 2:44  by  stancrist
roguetechie

From: roguetechie

20/9/21

I mean, to an extent the USMC can afford enough spares that high breakage rates shouldn't be much of an issue unless HK can't supply them enough.

The only thing we know 100% for sure on the 416 breakage rates is that the Marines do not like anyone sniffing around questioning said rates in the slightest.

So it's a situation where we know there's a problem but not the exact order or magnitude of said problem.

Precisely no one is willing to talk on the record about breakage rates and they're a kind of reluctant to talk off the record that says it can get you in serious trouble for saying the wrong thing about them.

The marine 416 program was poorly negotiated though and there's very scandalous amounts of money going into it.

As far as the IAR program being successful for coin, you're right it's probably more a case of it being less bad than the 249 was not any sort of actively good.

I'm definitely not 100% convinced that belt feds don't belong in squads though so I'm not an impartial observer here.

I feel like m249's definitely don't belong in squads but that's because the m249 just isn't super satisfactory period.

stancrist

From: stancrist

20/9/21

roguetechie said:

I mean, to an extent the USMC can afford enough spares that high breakage rates shouldn't be much of an issue unless HK can't supply them enough.

I think high breakage rates would very quickly become a HUGE issue in any land war with peer or near-peer opponents.

If the USMC is preparing to fight the Chinese, arming every Marine with a high-breakage-rate rifle seems a trifle unwise.

https://youtu.be/b1a_z9wyWpc?t=1

roguetechie said:

I'm definitely not 100% convinced that belt feds don't belong in squads though so I'm not an impartial observer here.

I'm definitely convinced that belt-fed machine guns do belong in squads. 

More importantly, most of the world's armies are convinced they belong.

Mag-fed automatic rifles are simply inferior for providing suppressive fire.  

https://youtu.be/QxMqWi-PV6k?t=35

-----------------------------------------------------

BTW, the system shows the following post as being unread by you.  relaxed

https://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages?msg=7519.1597

JPeelen

From: JPeelen

20/9/21

Stan, I am in awe of the squad organization and armament illustrations you present. They come in very handy for comparisons. Are these illustrations your creation or is there some source you use?  

JPeelen

From: JPeelen

20/9/21

I have no problem with your view that "HK is evil". Anyone who has read my opinions regarding the MG5 knows I am not HK's friend. On the other hand, facts should remain facts.

Just last week I listened to a presentation where a very experienced figure in small arms mentioned that you can say a lot against HK, but one of their advantages is literally "wading in fired cases" due to the very intensive testing they do.  

Your taking resort to mentioning alleged(!) indications(!) of "high breakage rates", totally unsupported by fact, is in my view misplaced and not in accordance with the view a large majority of experts in this field have about HK reliability. It seems, the not-invented-here syndrome has taken over. (Funny, due to HK basically only copying the Stoner design.) Mentioning "they die to M855A1" while the M4 variants suffered the same problem is also "economical with the truth."

Criticize HK as much as you like, but stick to proven facts.      

P.S.: It is of course possible to shoot every weapon to pieces if the maltreatment is harsh enough. But this says nothing about the real world combat quality of the weapon.    

  • Edited 20 September 2021 14:34  by  JPeelen
smg762

From: smg762

20/9/21

If CT ammo is short enoufhh to fit in a P90 style mag, it would make a great IAR....each guy could have 40 round mags. 

And the SAW guy could have extended 50 rounders.  The idea also works with a beefed up CBJ round.

How tall and wide is a CT 6.8....

  • Edited 20 September 2021 16:01  by  smg762
smg762

From: smg762

20/9/21

ALSO....this vid shows a slam and go belt box and it can interchange with normal.mags.... or am i missing something

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KwgcEnwS5EQ

stancrist

From: stancrist

20/9/21

I wish I could take credit for them, but no, they are not my creations.

They're from battleorder.org  battle order rifle squad - Google Search

  • Edited 20 September 2021 16:36  by  stancrist
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