gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3360
    MEMBERS
  • 191212
    MESSAGES
  • 3
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 553139 views.
roguetechie

From: roguetechie

2/11/21

Honestly it irritates me that GD and TV took such a risky "lowest common denominator" approach.

I get what they did and why but it just irks me because they have by far my favorite ammunition concept which totally could compete neck to neck with sig on equal footing and slaughter it.

But instead they bet on the DOD's penchant for mediocrity and penny wise pound foolishness.

One thing people shouldn't leave out of their considerations though is that the TV GD solution as it stands now is still generating a velocity lead over sig.

Not a terribly small one either.

I dunno man I'm kinda just frustrated with this entire competition, the contractors, and whoever it was wgo caved on the idiotic insistence that a 6.5-6.8mm projectile be used.

That single decision, along with the Marines and army being utterly uninterested when kori said hey we can give you pure fleet slam and go belt boxes back in LSAT days, just screwed the program from the jump.

smg762

From: smg762

2/11/21

Why not 6.5/6.8....are you advocating something like 22 or 6mm

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

2/11/21

I'm not even opposed to a 6.5-6.8 projectile. My buddy has a cartridge design for a cartridge and projectile in that range that can actually meet and exceed the ngsw armor requirements with a cartridge weight pretty close to brass case m855a1 when using a high pressure true velocity style neckless case. Cartridge length is approximately 2.4" so between 5.56 and 7.62 NATO in OAL. Unmoderated recoil would be a bit stouter than 7.62x39 but less than 7.62 NATO.

He even has a 13.8" bbl  5'ish pound rifle design he calls bearcat with an integrated recoil mitigation system in the stock that combined with a decent can would get actual felt recoil back down to a bit more than m855a1 out of an m4 and a bit less than 7.62x39 out of an AKM.

I actually like this cartridge and gun combo better than even his 5.56 super and 5.56 super cruise stuff because it would be a far superior GP caliber and gun combination. (Right down to being pretty similar to the loaded and fully accessorized weight of a current m4a1 including an ngsw fc weight optic, sling, suppressor, and laser designator package)

The caliber choice and locking the contractors into a pretty bad projectile design just made their jobs all but impossible. (To meet the 600 meter armor pen threshold with the advap projectile it needs to leave the muzzle at absolutely ridiculous and untenable MV)

Even his general purpose tool steel penetrator round could pop SAPI's to generous distances while also penetrating cinder blocks and intermediate barriers far better than m80a1 etc.

This example is what he terms his "best compromise round" if you insist on homogenous ammo at the platoon level. It's his "minimum acceptable MG cartridge" that could also be used in an individual rifle without making the rifle too heavy or onerous recoil wise.

Overall it represents a very good compromise position between rifle shootability and realistic ammo weight budget while still carrying a 210 round combat load while still giving your belt feds the ability to reach out well past 1km (this round is still heavily supersonic and above the fragmentation threshold for the projectile to substantially past 1 kilometer.like way past)

It's also calculated to give you at least 30 round magazines that don't extend below the gun further than rpk and AK mags so should be usable from prone and etc.

Even FURTHER it's calculated so that on an average size fighting age male you can plausibly and usefully attach that 210 round in magazines to your gear without looking like the picture posted above.

All in all, it has an infinite amount more thought and optimization for real factors and TACTICAL DOCTRINE than the sloppy thinking and mediocre effort put into the government furnished projectiles and the implications on gun size doctrine and etc said projectile would necessitate.

Even if my buddy is off by a massive margin on several performance factors (he's almost certainly not) it'd still produce a vastly more usable and useful gun and ammo combination than anything that's possible with the ngsw projectiles

smg762

From: smg762

2/11/21

Whats your beef with the 6.8 bullets...is it the lack of a 'valkyrie' long ogive?

The 6.8 CASE certainly ticks the right boxes, if only it had an aeroshell or cetme bullet with 4300fps, it could threaten level 4.

Surely if your friends OAL is short, the round would be too fat for 30rn mags

Today i noticed a wildcat, the 22 creedmoor.... a 223 with 2100ft lbs.

With a 43grn cetme bullet you get nearly 5k FPS

stancrist

From: stancrist

2/11/21

roguetechie said:

Sig's case is based off a larger CASE than 7.62 NATO Stan.

You are mistaken.  SIG's 6.8 NGSW case is the same diameter as the 7.62 NATO.   .277 SIG Fury Demystified - GunsAmerica Digest

That's why the SIG NGSW-AR can convert to 7.62 NATO or 6.5 CM with just a barrel change.  https://youtu.be/ZrKOLyLUZmI?t=810

poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

2/11/21

I still don't remember why not an entire steel case instead of such complicated design

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

2/11/21

You're making unjustified assumptions leading you to the wrong conclusions about what's possible and what isn't.

Speaking of which, the reason people don't just load way too light for caliber and powder load projectiles and launch them really fast is because that flat out doesn't work.

They won't generate pressure properly and thus won't get the velocity you think they will.

This is quite a bit more complicated than I think most people appreciate.

stancrist

From: stancrist

2/11/21

nincomp said:

roguetechie said: I think TV and GD made a bad bet in a bid to be backwards compatible when they should have put together something that really showed everything the TV case was capable of.

I agree.  It almost looks like they bet against the high velocity part of NGSW and went all out on ammo weight reduction for retrofitted weapons.

Hmm.  I don't view it that way.  I always thought that the "backwards compatibility" sales pitch was an afterthought, not the original intent -- an improvised "Plan B" instituted when GD decided to pass control to Lonestar. 

My recollection is that TV only started publicizing backwards compatibility shortly before it was announced that GD -- which never touted backwards compatibility -- was pulling out.

stancrist

From: stancrist

2/11/21

roguetechie said:

Even if my buddy is off by a massive margin on several performance factors (he's almost certainly not) it'd still produce a vastly more usable and useful gun and ammo combination than anything that's possible with the ngsw projectiles

There's just one problem with your buddy's designs:  They don't exist.  They're vaporware, not hardware.  There is no test data, because there is nothing to take to the range and shoot.

Gr1ff1th

From: Gr1ff1th

2/11/21

I 100% agree with you Stan, Nathaniel has a habit of basically pulling absurd numbers out of his ass with basically nothing to back them up, numerous times on this forum Emeric has proved him wrong on many of his assumptions, because unlike Nathaniel, Emeric actually has access to a doppler radar range, and a facility to make bullets and cases at, that's why even though I disagree with certain things Emeric believes (the RSI for one), I will always respect and believe him because he is an actual scientist with actual scientific instruments, Nathaniel has Solidworks blueprints and performance estimates from Powley computer (LOL, I'm not even sure if he has QuickLoad for that matter), he also relies on absurdly low form factor/high BC bullets to hit his targets, with zero thought to the mass producibility of those designs. 

And for the record I am not Anti-Nathaniel, his overall design philosophy and approach to how cartridges and weapons should be designed is very good, along with his invaluable work in the history of various cartridges over on TFB (when he was still there), along with his sensible focus on reducing weight for the soldier first and foremost, which really made the GPC advocates here uncomfortable, It's just that I really don't like his recent trend of "designing" Uber guns and Wunder bullets with basically magic numbers.

  • Edited 02 November 2021 23:59  by  Gr1ff1th
TOP