Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 577056 views.

From: roguetechie


I'm not even opposed to a 6.5-6.8 projectile. My buddy has a cartridge design for a cartridge and projectile in that range that can actually meet and exceed the ngsw armor requirements with a cartridge weight pretty close to brass case m855a1 when using a high pressure true velocity style neckless case. Cartridge length is approximately 2.4" so between 5.56 and 7.62 NATO in OAL. Unmoderated recoil would be a bit stouter than 7.62x39 but less than 7.62 NATO.

He even has a 13.8" bbl  5'ish pound rifle design he calls bearcat with an integrated recoil mitigation system in the stock that combined with a decent can would get actual felt recoil back down to a bit more than m855a1 out of an m4 and a bit less than 7.62x39 out of an AKM.

I actually like this cartridge and gun combo better than even his 5.56 super and 5.56 super cruise stuff because it would be a far superior GP caliber and gun combination. (Right down to being pretty similar to the loaded and fully accessorized weight of a current m4a1 including an ngsw fc weight optic, sling, suppressor, and laser designator package)

The caliber choice and locking the contractors into a pretty bad projectile design just made their jobs all but impossible. (To meet the 600 meter armor pen threshold with the advap projectile it needs to leave the muzzle at absolutely ridiculous and untenable MV)

Even his general purpose tool steel penetrator round could pop SAPI's to generous distances while also penetrating cinder blocks and intermediate barriers far better than m80a1 etc.

This example is what he terms his "best compromise round" if you insist on homogenous ammo at the platoon level. It's his "minimum acceptable MG cartridge" that could also be used in an individual rifle without making the rifle too heavy or onerous recoil wise.

Overall it represents a very good compromise position between rifle shootability and realistic ammo weight budget while still carrying a 210 round combat load while still giving your belt feds the ability to reach out well past 1km (this round is still heavily supersonic and above the fragmentation threshold for the projectile to substantially past 1 way past)

It's also calculated to give you at least 30 round magazines that don't extend below the gun further than rpk and AK mags so should be usable from prone and etc.

Even FURTHER it's calculated so that on an average size fighting age male you can plausibly and usefully attach that 210 round in magazines to your gear without looking like the picture posted above.

All in all, it has an infinite amount more thought and optimization for real factors and TACTICAL DOCTRINE than the sloppy thinking and mediocre effort put into the government furnished projectiles and the implications on gun size doctrine and etc said projectile would necessitate.

Even if my buddy is off by a massive margin on several performance factors (he's almost certainly not) it'd still produce a vastly more usable and useful gun and ammo combination than anything that's possible with the ngsw projectiles


From: smg762


Whats your beef with the 6.8 it the lack of a 'valkyrie' long ogive?

The 6.8 CASE certainly ticks the right boxes, if only it had an aeroshell or cetme bullet with 4300fps, it could threaten level 4.

Surely if your friends OAL is short, the round would be too fat for 30rn mags

Today i noticed a wildcat, the 22 creedmoor.... a 223 with 2100ft lbs.

With a 43grn cetme bullet you get nearly 5k FPS


From: stancrist


roguetechie said:

Sig's case is based off a larger CASE than 7.62 NATO Stan.

You are mistaken.  SIG's 6.8 NGSW case is the same diameter as the 7.62 NATO.   .277 SIG Fury Demystified - GunsAmerica Digest

That's why the SIG NGSW-AR can convert to 7.62 NATO or 6.5 CM with just a barrel change.


From: poliorcetes


I still don't remember why not an entire steel case instead of such complicated design


From: roguetechie


You're making unjustified assumptions leading you to the wrong conclusions about what's possible and what isn't.

Speaking of which, the reason people don't just load way too light for caliber and powder load projectiles and launch them really fast is because that flat out doesn't work.

They won't generate pressure properly and thus won't get the velocity you think they will.

This is quite a bit more complicated than I think most people appreciate.


From: stancrist


nincomp said:

roguetechie said: I think TV and GD made a bad bet in a bid to be backwards compatible when they should have put together something that really showed everything the TV case was capable of.

I agree.  It almost looks like they bet against the high velocity part of NGSW and went all out on ammo weight reduction for retrofitted weapons.

Hmm.  I don't view it that way.  I always thought that the "backwards compatibility" sales pitch was an afterthought, not the original intent -- an improvised "Plan B" instituted when GD decided to pass control to Lonestar. 

My recollection is that TV only started publicizing backwards compatibility shortly before it was announced that GD -- which never touted backwards compatibility -- was pulling out.


From: stancrist


roguetechie said:

Even if my buddy is off by a massive margin on several performance factors (he's almost certainly not) it'd still produce a vastly more usable and useful gun and ammo combination than anything that's possible with the ngsw projectiles

There's just one problem with your buddy's designs:  They don't exist.  They're vaporware, not hardware.  There is no test data, because there is nothing to take to the range and shoot.


From: Gr1ff1th


I 100% agree with you Stan, Nathaniel has a habit of basically pulling absurd numbers out of his ass with basically nothing to back them up, numerous times on this forum Emeric has proved him wrong on many of his assumptions, because unlike Nathaniel, Emeric actually has access to a doppler radar range, and a facility to make bullets and cases at, that's why even though I disagree with certain things Emeric believes (the RSI for one), I will always respect and believe him because he is an actual scientist with actual scientific instruments, Nathaniel has Solidworks blueprints and performance estimates from Powley computer (LOL, I'm not even sure if he has QuickLoad for that matter), he also relies on absurdly low form factor/high BC bullets to hit his targets, with zero thought to the mass producibility of those designs. 

And for the record I am not Anti-Nathaniel, his overall design philosophy and approach to how cartridges and weapons should be designed is very good, along with his invaluable work in the history of various cartridges over on TFB (when he was still there), along with his sensible focus on reducing weight for the soldier first and foremost, which really made the GPC advocates here uncomfortable, It's just that I really don't like his recent trend of "designing" Uber guns and Wunder bullets with basically magic numbers.

  • Edited 02 November 2021 23:59  by  Gr1ff1th

From: roguetechie


I'd love to see his stuff actually get proper testing and development to be honest.

I think he's onto several things that would flat out work better than what we're doing now.

As far as the absurdly low form factors line of commentary goes...

As Emeric is wont to mention pretty regularly, the Balle D bullet is what a century old at this point?

7n6 and it's successors are almost senior citizens.

6mm unified is practically mid life crisis aged.

There is nothing that makes FF'S below 1.0 or even the high .8's magically unmanufacturable.

Also, the idea that we're going to go to all this trouble to develop a long distance death caliber and then basically throw it all away because ff's below 1.0 are just a bridge too far is absolutely maddening.

It's also kinda funny how this forum selectively forgets that companies like flatline and a whole bunch of others are chasing exactly the same rabbit Nate is (and showing results I might add) when it suits people, then suddenly remembers the same information so long as no one has brought up anything even tangentially Nathaniel f related.

I am genuinely curious though about what would make such rounds just utterly unmanufacturable.

As far as "I don't know if he even has quickload goes...

Thanks for that, I genuinely needed a good laugh considering how many conversations I've seen or been involved in where the limits of quickload are actively lamented, the workarounds and alternative calculating strategies are discussed, and the like.

It's things like that which give a window into the honesty level people consider SOP.


From: Gr1ff1th


The Quickload comment was about the fact that he was using the online Powley calculator for literally years, it still gives pressure in CUP for fucks sake, and yes Balle D, 7n6 and 6mm Unified are all excellent producible designs, Don't think I'm someone who thinks we're stuck with potato 1.1FF .30Cal bullets forever, because I'm not one of those people

But likening actual military bullets to solid copper lathe turned flatline bullets is just not very smart, those are literally gucci target bullets, not at all suitable for mass production or even military use,

And your comment about what makes them unmanufacturable should be obvious, if it was possible to turn out sub 0.7FF Military bullets in large quantities it would already have been done but there really is no excuse for not matching Balle D's form factor in the 21st century

However that's not what Nathaniel ever suggests, he's basically chasing a high at this point, where his earlier designs and concepts were very sensible and grounded, take .224 + .243 Vulcan for example, and then went completely off the deep end with Von Karman Ogive bullets (that have never been made outside of a lab) and 100KPSI TV Cases (and FYI there's no evidence TV can even handle that),

And we haven't even gotten into his gun "designs" yet, although the word concepts would be more accurate, I personally would not want to stand anywhere near Bearcat with a 100KSPI during a test fire without an EOD suit on myself. 

Also I would like you to elaborate on what you mean by the honestly level people consider SOP, I genuinely do not know what you mean by that

Edit 1 : To better illustrate what I mean about "chasing the high"

2015 : One 85gr 0.92FF 6MM bullet a 0.21G7
2016 :  One 85 gr 0.86FF 6MM with a 0.23G7
2020 : One 100gr 0.673FF 6MM with a 0.356G7!

You can clearly see a trend here, with the designs starting reasonable and grounded, and then trending into fantasy

  • Edited 03 November 2021 1:54  by  Gr1ff1th