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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 520377 views.
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

10/11/21

Apparently we're not the only ones who are speculating based on that press release...

https://soldiersystems.net/2021/11/10/true-velocity-acquires-lonestar-future-weapons/

SSD had this editorial on top of the presser:

The release also claims that they are one of two companies remaining in the NGSW program.? I know that SIG is still involved based on discussions during AUSA. So by elimination, True Velocity is telling us that Textron and their Case Telescoping Technology is out?.

There are some legs to this assumption. I had heard several rumors while in the UK attending DSEi that Textron was out. At AUSA??, I visited the Textron booth and there were no NGSW candidates in the booth. I inquired at the front desk and they told me they would get back to me after accepting my card.?? About two hours later, I received an email which informed me that they would be unable to discuss the program with me during AUSA?. I furthered my investigation by speaking with some of their suppliers in attendance at the show, who quite properly told me they couldn’t comment on the matter.

The three NGSW vendors had to send in their latest proposals for the program a few weeks ago. I have inquired with the Army as to which companies submitted proposals and I’m awaiting their answer.?? Until we get a definitive answer from either of the Army or Textron, ?it’s all an educated guess.

Gr1ff1th

From: Gr1ff1th

11/11/21

I really, really hope Textron isn't out, but we'll have to wait on the Army getting back to SSD to know for sure, It's going to be really depressing if this is the case, I just don't even know what would cause them to be out, it would have to be something big or fundamental to their designs, no idea how something like that wouldn't have been caught in the last decade of testing

  • Edited 11 November 2021 1:29  by  Gr1ff1th
stancrist

From: stancrist

11/11/21

There is one very obvious drawback to the Textron NGSW-R:  The single-feed magazine design.

Perhaps the Army decided being unable to load magazines via stripper clips is not acceptable?

Gr1ff1th

From: Gr1ff1th

11/11/21

I highly doubt whether magazines could be charged by stripper clips would be the determining factor for disqualifying such a promising system.
 

It would have to be a critical technical issue with the prototypes, my guess(if they really have dropped out) would be something like severe accuracy issues induced via chamber misalignment resulting from rough handling/field conditions, seeing as the tolerances for <4 MOA shooting have to be in the 0.1mm range and ideally would be perfectly aligned to shoot 1 MOA, if the chamber is off by 0.2mm the gun will start shooting 12MOA according to the research paper done on it.

  • Edited 11 November 2021 6:39  by  Gr1ff1th
nincomp

From: nincomp

11/11/21

Perhaps I am a bit dim, but I don't really see the advantage of a case telescoped round for an infantry weapon when compared to TV's polymer cased one.  It would seem:

1)  that more polymer would be needed to enclose the bullet, increasing the rounds volume

2)  the case would be larger diameter (although shorter), making the magazines wider and the increased volume adds bulk

3)  the moving chamber brings additional complications like proper alignment 

I can understand why a CT cartridge would be useful for handling for larger diameter autocannons where the overall length of a cartridge affects loading speed, I just am not sure that the same advantage holds for smaller infantry weapons.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

11/11/21

4chan speculation via reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/qrn2jh/ngsw_ammo_mfg_true_velocity_acquires_recently/

Someone on /k/ worked out the timeline and found how this chain of events is tied into the testing cycle, and indicates TV's confidence in victory.

Ok, well this is interesting. True Velocity made the purchase for $84,000,000. Prior to this year TV doesn't have any records of funding rounds, but this year it did two rounds of $6m and $30m in Sep and Oct. The timeline for the GD-LS-TV novations and sales is:

Mid Apr: TV and LS announce strategic partnership.

30 Jun: Army grants approval for GD novation of patents to LS.

Sep-late Oct: TV does fundraising rounds.

Nov: TV announces acquisition of LS.

Overlay this with test scheduling. Q3fy20 was initial test commencement, Q2fy21 was trials commencemdnt.

At the time we assumed GD were washing their hands of NGSW. It now looks more like LS and TV realised that Textron had shat the bed at prototype/soldier touch point test in 2020 and had a decision point at Q2fy21 where they'd see what Textron submitted for the trials; if they didn't see a certain thing or if they saw Textron do some other certain thing then they were confidence that they'd win and were in a position to capitalise on the information advantage to consolidate get the excess profit instead of it all going to GD as prime. LS was able to novate the patents almost immediately once they had govt approval but TV had to do a fundraising round to get the capital.

I think they're certain they've won and they're setting up for a system monopoly by consolidating the system elements (ammo, weapon, can't get sights right now) in a single horizontally and vertically integrated prime. I think they reached this conclusion as soon as the second trials started.

Gr1ff1th

From: Gr1ff1th

11/11/21

I would be completely fine with a GD/TV Win, their entry+ammo is good, and if they can get that lightweight medium machine gun they're working on later than even better, However at this point all we have to go off is speculation about Textron, so I'll wait until they put out a press release or get back to SSD about whether they're in or not.

stancrist

From: stancrist

11/11/21

If the GD bullpup is a sure win, why would GD give up control, and the lion's share of profits?

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

11/11/21

stancrist said:

If the GD bullpup is a sure win, why would GD give up control, and the lion's share of profits?

They seem not very interested in Small Arms these days; the .338 LWMMG -  a concept they invented and popularized - is no longer on their website. 

As for why, no idea. Maybe small arms are just small fry given their pretty huge defense portfolio of other projects? 

  • Edited 11 November 2021 21:46  by  gatnerd
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

11/11/21

More SSD speculation from the comments:

 Vet:

"Textron is out. It was leaked by accident by LMT (which partnered with them on suppressors for NGSW) on a live Q&A a month ago, which was since removed from YouTube. The reference to “one of two teams remaining in the NGSW program” in the PR release above further confirms it.."

SSD:

"I spoke with Karl Lewis about it. He explained that he couldn’t discuss the matter. When I asked him about the video he said, “that video has been deleted and the person who uploaded it reprimanded.” I took that as a clue."

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