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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 457841 views.
EmericD

From: EmericD

21-Jan

stancrist said:

Is it?  Can you cite any examples of US Army small arms programs that resulted in no winner, but one or more of the candidate weapons were later adopted as off-the-shelf items?

Maybe the M203 from the SPIW program, and the ACOG from the ACR program?

But I agree that SIG and TV announcement to release both weapons & ammo on the public market is a kind of "world-first".

We had to wait until the release of the ACR report to find that if HK G11 and Steyr ACR were never pushed to any other military market, it was because the root concept for both gun was not sound.

stancrist

From: stancrist

21-Jan

EmericD said:

Maybe the M203 from the SPIW program, and the ACOG from the ACR program?

Sure, there have been instances of bits and pieces from cancelled small arms programs being adopted later, but I'd hardly call it a "trend."

And I don't know of any cases where the rifles or machine guns from programs like SPIW, 6mm SAW, or XM8 Carbine were later adopted.

  • Edited 21 January 2022 13:09  by  stancrist
poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

21-Jan

The non-fixed chamber in both guns was also not sound or just the cartridges?

Would G11 have been adopted by Germany if the reunification had not taken place or was it a myth?

stancrist

From: stancrist

21-Jan

Myth or fact, Germans are probably lucky the G11 did not get adopted.  How would soldiers have carried spare magazines -- in a quiver on their back?  smile 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

22-Jan

The ACR report had pretty abysmal accuracy for the G11 and Steyr ACR, so I doubt it. The G11 also had other issues, such as the receiver filling with flammable gas as a byproduct of its ceaseless propellant and sealed action.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

22-Jan

Yeah those mags are like 15-17”long so would have been a big hassle.

EmericD

From: EmericD

22-Jan

poliorcetes said:

The non-fixed chamber in both guns was also not sound or just the cartridges?

For me, the whole concept behind the G11 was a failure.

- A caseless ammo so you can carry more rounds for the same weight (remember the nice graph showing a G11 with 510 cartridges versus a M16 with 240 rounds?). The "reality check" shows that due to the magazine geometry, a soldier was unable to carry more rounds of 4.7 mm caseless than conventional cased ammo. The rifle was supposed to be carried with 3 magazines on the top of the rifle (all the weight was on the rifle), one inserted, and 2 waiting to be fired, so that's 3x45 = 135 rounds available. The soldier could reload his 3 magazines with stripper clips of 15 rounds, but that's not a very practical option on the battlefield. Needless to say, the "low to very low" cook-off limit of the caseless round would have made the "battle of Wanat" a common occurrence.

- A free recoiling barrel assembly so you could fire 3 rounds at very high rpm with great accuracy and increased hit probability. Again, the "reality check" showed that even at 2200 rpm on a free recoiling assembly, the shot-to-shot dispersion was too high to increase hit probability, best results were achieved using semi-auto fire.

- Simple care and maintenance. Yes it was, because the mechanism was so complex that soldiers were not allowed to clean anything inside. A failure to feed resulting in a broken round inside the gun? No problems, simply return the rifle to the armorer and he will clean the gun...

JPeelen

From: JPeelen

22-Jan

The permission to adopt the G11 was formally granted on 08 March 1992 although in 1990 the financing problems started due to the collapse of communism. 

The criticism against the G11 which I agree with is: the failure of the high-rate burst from a recoiling mechanism (lafettiertes System in German)  to achieve increased hit probability in the ACR test. It would be interesting to know the results from the tests in Germany, but they are kept under the covers. In patrticular I would like to learn the target distance distribution used in Germany. I hope to live long enough to be able to study those files after release. Having targets exclusively at exact(!) 100, 200, 300 etc. meters (corresponding to aiming marks) and none(!) at intermediate distances, as in the ACR test, is in my view not very realistic. 

The other criticisms, like untested technology, overcomplication and so on, have been similarly raised on the introduction of the Dreyse needle gun. Not to mention the problems with smokeless powder. Jet engines are another example of a new technology which began with more disadvantages than advantages. The criticism usually imply that we would still have the same design as in 1992. If the G11 had been adopted in 1992, the current rifle would be very different from it, like a Mauser 98 is from a Mauser-Norris of 1869. By the way, the latest G11 version carried three magazines (141 cartridges) side-by-side on the rifle. No problem with caseless. 

Regarding Afghanistan, it is a good thing we did not have the 4.9 mm cartridge of the G11. It was optimized for engagements within at most 300/400 m as was expected from cold war German Panzergrenadier tactics. Long range individual rifle engagements were not the plan in 1992. That is the ballistic consideration. On the other hand, when the rules of engagement make sure you can never win (mortar ROE for example), the rifle is of little consequence.  

Three decades later, technology may offer other ways to try something new. But I stay with my opinion that at the time it was the right thing to at least try something really new to solve the hit probability problem in the expected cold war infantry scenario.        

smg762

From: smg762

23-Jan

I disagree. The 4.9 had a higher BC than 556 and more range

smg762

From: smg762

23-Jan

Mags were 21 inch....as long as the barrel

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