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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 447494 views.
smg762

From: smg762

25-Jan

if you guys could design the perfect ACR for hit probability, what would it be like

stancrist

From: stancrist

25-Jan

Thanks.  I had intended to say something to that effect, but it slipped my mind.

A follow-up note:  Although the barrel looks unusually long in the pic that gatnerd posted, it may only be 20 inches, like the MARS-H 6.5 DMR

JPeelen

From: JPeelen

25-Jan

gatnerd said:

Simply going from FAL to AUG proved a solid boost in firepower and hit probability for the Austrians, and was ready by 1977.

Very true.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

25-Jan

How did the 5.56 MG-42 work for Spain? I have read not well.

stancrist

From: stancrist

25-Jan

gatnerd said:

I personally think they should have tried something else new rather then the jump from G3 to G11.

They actually did try something else.  They went from G3 to G36.

EmericD

From: EmericD

25-Jan

Would depends on the context, but the goal of the ACR program was to "double" the hit probability versus the M16, and you can "double" Ph only if it's already below 50%.

For really increasing hit probability above 300 m, a FN FAL chambered for the .243 Winchester and using a 105 gr VLD bullet would have been a great improvement.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

25-Jan

Farmplinker said:

How did the 5.56 MG-42 work for Spain? I have read not well

I had read mixed reports.

Certainly looks pretty awesome and controllable in this video:

CETME Ameli - 80 rd burst - WAAAAYYY more fun than the SAW!

WAY more controllable than the M249 SAW.Recoil in almost non-existent.Extremely portable - I'm carrying the weapon, with an 80 rd belt of 5.56x45 mm.My AR-15...

Given the G11's 1967-1990 design timeline, vs the 1974-1981 design timeline for the Ameli, theres every reason to expect Germany could have produced a highly reliable 'Micro42' in less time then the G11. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

25-Jan

stancrist said:

They actually did try something else.  They went from G3 to G36

Well, the G36 was done after the G11 was canceled/failed. And it was only adopted in the mid 1990's, after the Cold War had ended.

Had the Cold War gone hot (say in 1984), the moonshot delays of the G11 program would have resulted in the W. Germans fighting hordes of AK74 weilding Red's with G3 battle rifles. 

stancrist

From: stancrist

26-Jan

gatnerd said:

Had the Cold War gone hot (say in 1984), the moonshot delays of the G11 program would have resulted in the W. Germans fighting hordes of AK74 weilding Red's with G3 battle rifles.

Had the Cold War gone hot in 1958, the delays of the M14 program would have resulted in Americans fighting hordes of AK47 wielding Red's with M1 Garand rifles.

George Chinn once noted that the Germans always sought to create tomorrow's weapons today, while the U.S. always sought to create yesterday's weapons soon.

It's easy to look back now and say they should have taken a different approach, but the Germans were just attempting to do as they had successfully done before.

Caseless ammo is a great idea, at least in theory, and seemed worth pursuing.  It didn't pan out, but they didn't know that at the time.  I can't fault them for trying.

In contrast, the U.S. was well aware of the assault rifle concept in the mid-1940s, but chose to ignore it and develop a slightly improved version of the obsolete M1.

  • Edited 26 January 2022 0:16  by  stancrist
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

26-Jan

stancrist said:

It's easy to look back now and say they should have taken a different approach, but the Germans were just attempting to do as they had successfully done before. Caseless ammo is a great idea, at least in theory, and seemed worth pursuing.  It didn't pan out, but they didn't know that at the time.  I can't fault them for trying.

I mean, it's cool that they tried, and ultimately the Cold didnt turn Hot, so no harm no foul.

That said, the M14 vs G3 issue kind of shows how much delay the G11 resulted in. 

STG44 = 1944. AK47 = 1947

Assault Rifle race is on.

US = M14 1959-1967 --> 1967 M16

W. Germany = G3 1959-1997 --> 1997 G36

So thats a full 30 years of G3ing past when the US swapped out the M14 for an assault rifle. And while the US was slow to see the merits of the Assault Rifle, the Germans actually invented it, yet the W. Germans didnt issue one until 1997.

In terms of Caseless being a good idea. Well, it's lighter to be sure. But my understanding was most of the W.G. infantry would be either motorized, or fighting from defensive positions. Most with an expected lifespan of hours to days if defending some flashpoint like the Fulda Gap.

So not like they needed the weight savings for endless foot patrols in Afghanistan. And the ability to carry more ammo for the same weight in order to slay hordes of Reds was defeated by the absurd magazines, which should have been obvious pretty early in the program.

"Hey Hans, these mags are longer then a Gestapo truncheon..." 

In terms of Tomorrows weapons today...they skipped a whole hell of a lot of tomorrows and went deep into the future with the G11. The AUG was a tomorrow weapon today. The G11 exceeds the advancement of the 2022 NGSW candidates in technology (minus the smart optic.) 

I'm hard pressed to think of a more radical jump in arms technology without intermediate steps, other then going from the HE gravity bomb to the atom bomb. 

Evolutionary design progression:

STG44/AK47 --> SCHV assault rifle --> Next Gen SCHV with optics and improved features/materials --> Aluminum or Polymer case conventional --> cased telescopic polymer --> caseless --> caseless hyperburst

G11 Design progression:

STG44/AK47 --> SCHV Assault Rifle --> Caseless Hyperburst 

Kind of the ultimate reflection of how much a leap the G11 was is the Steyr ACR. Here was a bullpup firing cased telescopic flechettes at 4750fps @ 1200rpm.  That was designed in 1987 and ready for military testing by 1988/90. Vs 30 years of G11 development. 

  • Edited 26 January 2022 3:09  by  gatnerd
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