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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 456734 views.
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27-Jan

mpopenker said:

Micro-calibers are very prone to the water in the bore problem, and the smaller the bore, the more serious is that problem They also are very ineffective against improvised cover, such as walls, earth/sand berms et

Thats good to know. But the Germans did seem satisfied with the risk with the 4.73 for the G11, and I havent heard reports of the 4.6 MP7 having water logged bores? But perhaps thats because they've been deployed to the desert. 

poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

27-Jan

Design was sound and the prototypes worked awesome. SAS was delighted with them

However, these were the years in which political management destroyed both CETME and Santa Barbara facilities. They calculated costs so badly that they have to cut corners like crazy. Both CETME L and AMELI were so poorly built because of such "savings" that had to be discarded just after some years.

We have heard a lot of terror stories of soldiers who had to go to missions with non-functional rifles, or with rifles that they knew that were going to fail after a couple of magazines. Talking about the magazines, they were specially crappy, the same than plastic furnitures...

Indeed nowadays CETME-L built by american companies work reliably. The problem was not the design at all. The same happened with the batchs for our Guardia Civil, of much better quality

what a sad and shameful end of our capabilites. And nobody went to jail because of that

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27-Jan

In NGSW news, we may have a finalist picked in the coming months or so, with contracts expected to be issued by April. Its also alleged that the current geopolitical tensions may hasten the rifles adoption.

https://taskandpurpose.com/military-tech/army-next-generation-squad-weapon-m4-m249/?amp

The article also seems to re-confirm that the competition is now between SIG and TV for the 6.8, with Textron no longer mentioned. 

JPeelen

From: JPeelen

27-Jan

Thanks a lot for the fix.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

27-Jan

Well, we had the M-14. Winchester and H&R knew how to make guns, so they didn't pay as close as attention as they should have. So a lot of problems with their rifles in the field. TRW, which also got a contract, had never made rifles before. So they carefully studied "how to make rifles", tested their machinery and assembly procedures. They produced the best M-14s. Sadly, the contract was cancelled before the new equipment was paid off.

smg762

From: smg762

27-Jan

Much better to put the 4.6 in a Sabot and launch with 1700ft lbs. Imagine a SAW in such a caliber

stancrist

From: stancrist

27-Jan

gatnerd said:

Its a shame they didnt take a closer look at the Austrians, who also used the MG3, and then protected it with 5.56 AUGs.  Cold War 1984 goes hot, Austria really had the best mix of anyone...

There is a very critical flaw with your "Cold War goes hot in 1984" premise:  The hypothetical hot war could just as easily have happened before 1984.

If you're going to argue that West Germany should have switched to 5.56mm rifles to be better equipped to fight the Soviet hordes pouring through the Fulda Gap, logic dictates that the caliber change should've been done ASAP after the adoption of 5.56mm by the United States.

The most logical choice for the West Germans is not the AUG, which was not an option until 1977.  It is the HK33, which was available a decade earlier.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27-Jan

"If you want to revive the "micro caliber fever" of the 70s, you could reload a .17 WSM with a scaled-down "balle D", you will end with a 29 gr bullet with a C7 around 0.16 at a MV around 750 m/s"

That could be pretty neat, similar to a modern version of the Interdynamics MKR:

5.7x28 can launch a 27gr @ 2400fps from a 4.75" barrel at 50kpsi, and the 4.6x30 DM11 31gr is 2360fps from a 7.1". Curious how either of those would do with the 29gr from a 14.5" barrel. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27-Jan

stancrist said:

The most logical choice for the West Germans is not the AUG, which was not an option until 1977.  It is the HK33, which was available a decade earlier.

You're right, that would have been an excellent choice.

In fact the SEALS in Vietnam were quite fond of it for a similar reason to the Red Horde Fulda mower - on recon missions they appreciated the extra firepower made possible with its 40rd mag. 

stancrist

From: stancrist

28-Jan

Very interesting.  I don't recall ever having read about SEAL use of the HK33.

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