Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3337
  • 189773
  • 7


NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 502167 views.

From: stancrist


roguetechie said:

As far as the video goes t's still online and sig hasn't pulled it down...

Of course SIG has not pulled it down.  The video is not SIG's to pull down.  It belongs to T&P.

roguetechie said:

It's going to be very interesting to see where all of this goes from here.

At least we got an AMAZING new optic out of the deal though. The optic is the real bright spot here.

Concur on both counts.  sunglasses


From: Apsyda


Perfect being the enemy of good enough on a project that probably doesn't even need to happen is silly if being used as the decision making rationale.

The least they can do on their wundermagnum dream gun, is make sure that its not using an ass-backwards ammo design when that was at least 50% of the project.


From: stancrist


Apsyda said:

Perfect being the enemy of good enough on a project that probably doesn't even need to happen is silly if being used as the decision making rationale

No one knows the future.  Only time will tell for certain if NGSW is worth doing, as well as whether or not there is enough time to re-engineer the SIG guns to fire TV ammo before they are needed on the battlefield.


From: Farmplinker


The Orthopedic-Industrial Complex has purchased Stan!stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye


From: stancrist


What, do you have something against a guy making a little cash on the side?  smile


From: stancrist


Besides, a rifleman will carry only 11 or 12 of these.  

How much can a dozen plastic magazines weigh?  smiling_imp


From: Gr1ff1th


Army press release on the NGSW contract

Takeaways from the first 30 minutes of questions

1. Textron was indeed disqualified prior to the RFP phase of the program for "not meeting requirements", although he was not able to specify which ones (let the speculation commence)
2. SIG apparently had the "most value" for the army
3. They weren't able to confirm whether it could penetrate lvl4 plates
4. It is not intended to replace 5.56 and 7.62 NATO


From: graylion


What is the point if it is _not_ supposed to replace the NATO standard cartridges???


From: 17thfabn


Probably instead of replacing 5.5 & 7.62, 6.8 mm will supplement them..... IF..... it actually is adopted .

7.62 could be kept for vehicles and non infantry use machine guns. Artillery and engineer units have a lot of machine guns that aren't humped around.

6.8 would probably only be used by Infantry, Rangers, Special Forces and maybe dismounted Cavalry.

Artillery, engineers, mortar crews etc. could keep 5.56 as personal weapons. 


From: gatnerd


nincomp said:

I think that it is unreasonable to believe that the US will not be soon running into at least some foes who are able to wear the kind of protection that it has been using for a couple decades.  The price of effective body armor is falling every day and the current events are pointing out WHY it is worth getting.  As slowly as the US Military works, it is important to at least have something available to deal with even small groups of well armored adversaries.  The US may even learn something and (reasonably) quickly develop a better alternative.* 

I'm not arguing that the US will not encounter armored adversaries, nor that it should not develop methods of countering them. 

Rather, I'm saying that the threat posed is not acute enough to justify rushing into a new caliber/case technology that appears to be suboptimal, especially as once adopted the caliber may be around for decades. 

If there was any chance of TV's polymer cases working, every effort should have been made to bring that technology across the finish line, rather then re-investing in metallic cases that are comparable in weight to brass. 


In terms of rapid armor defeat capability, the US Army has just adopted the 6,000 HK 417 7.62x51 as a 'SDMR'. Specifically to allow a rapid armor defeat capability:

The Army began pushing to arm infantry squads with more potent weapons in 2017, when leaders told Congress that the service's M855A1 5.56mm enhanced performance round would not penetrate modern enemy body armor. Ultimately, the Army plans to equip infantrymen with rifle and automatic rifle variants of the NGSW, which is chambered to fire a specially-designed 6.8mm projectile.

As a short-term fix, the Army selected the new M110A1 -- a weapon it originally chose in 2016 as its new Compact Semi-Automatic Sniper System -- to serve as the SDMR. It will be used with the service's new 7.62mm enhanced performance round to give squads more penetrating power to defeat enemy body armor, Army officials say.

Emeric had mentioned the French are going a similar route, using Tungsten DM151 in their 7.62 DMR's as an AP squad capability. This load offers superior performance to the now outdated M993, and should be capable of fulfilling the Armys AP needs for the next few years or more.

I just dont see the need to rush into what looks like a sub-optimal solution. 

Issue DM151 to the DMR's and M240's, and spend more time perfecting NGSW. 

That said, its possible TVs cases just dont work / cant be fixed. But until thats confirmed I think the choice of the SIG case is a serious mistake.