gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 554004 views.
nincomp

From: nincomp

25/4/22

stancrist said:

So, if case necks are a significant problem with polymer ammo, why are the Marines spending so much money and effort on developing it?

You answered your own question.  The necks are indeed a significant problem.  That is why it takes such large expenditures to develop it and find a solution to the problem.  The 6.8 TVC gives us a good idea of an optimized polymer case looks like.  The section that holds the bullet requires more thickness than a brass one.   It got rid of the Achilles' heel of he polymer case, the neck. 

We learned that the polymer case of Textron's CT cartridge flowed foreword upon firing and sealed the breach.  That makes me wonder about what is going on with TV's case during firing.

Unfortunately, existing chambers have a neck area that requires a thin case wall.  Even worse, that thin neck gets hot because it is in an area of the barrel that is exposed longest to the burning propellant during firing.    Previous attempts with polymer cases have shown that bonding the shank of a bullet to the thin neck material commonly results in the necks being torn off.   One logical solution would be to bond the bullet farther back the case.  Make the shoulder area of the cartridge solid polymer and bond it there.  The thin material at the neck now becomes just a tube to fill up the gap between the bullet and the chamber wall.   An extension of the chambers's freebore in essense.   Just wasted material and length serving as a guide for the bullet.  The propellant capacity of the case is reduced, however, because the area near the shoulder is now solid polymer.  The effects of the flow and movement of the polymer under pressure during firing might still prove a problem.

It would resemble the 6.8 TVC case with a hollow tube attached to the front. 

I don't know if a polymer case body with a solid shoulder area would be injection molded in one piece.   I've looked at pictures of TV's 308 ammo and even viewed TV's videos in slow motion, but I cannot see into a fired case.  To be honest, if no pics show up soon, I am tempted to buy a some, just so I can section it.   For what it is worth, the 6.8 TVC ammo case is made in two pieces, with the neck welded onto the body.  

nincomp

From: nincomp

25/4/22

Emeric, have you had the opportunity to section a True Velocity case?  If so, was some type of reinforcing added to the shoulder and neck area.

Thanks

stancrist

From: stancrist

25/4/22

nincomp said:

I don't know if a polymer case body with a solid shoulder area would be injection molded in one piece.   I've looked at pictures of TV's 308 ammo and even viewed TV's videos in slow motion, but I cannot see into a fired case.  To be honest, if no pics show up soon, I am tempted to buy a some, just so I can section it.   For what it is worth, the 6.8 TVC ammo case is made in two pieces, with the neck welded onto the body. 

TV patent drawing shows the same two-piece construction for their necked cases:  https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/true-velocity-metal-injection-molded-ammunition-cartridge-case-head-patent-the-all-inclusive-composite-cartridge-case-or-so-they-say/43084

TV advertisement shows thickened shoulder similar to what I think you proposed:  https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/true-velocity-polymer-case-ammunition/27365/5

Note the claim of more efficient powder burn.  This is one reason why I think it's necessary to compare necked polymer case 6.8x51 ammo to neckless 6.8x51 TVCM in order to determine what effect the neckless configuration has on muzzle velocity.

EmericD

From: EmericD

25/4/22

nincomp said:

Emeric, have you had the opportunity to section a True Velocity case?  If so, was some type of reinforcing added to the shoulder and neck area.

Unfortunately, no, and the people from TV took large efforts to be sure that no empty cases remained on the ground (or into pockets) after firing.

  • Edited 25 April 2022 17:11  by  EmericD
EmericD

From: EmericD

25/4/22

nincomp said:

It would resemble the 6.8 TVC case with a hollow tube attached to the front. 

Instead of a tube that could produce feeding problems, make something like 3 or 4 petals following the bullet ogive, that could open to let the bullet pass.

stancrist

From: stancrist

25/4/22

nincomp said:

To be honest, if no pics show up soon, I am tempted to buy a some, just so I can section it.   For what it is worth, the 6.8 TVC ammo case is made in two pieces, with the neck welded onto the body.

Well, it looks like you can save your hardly-earned smile money.  I just found a photo showing the two-piece construction.

stancrist

From: stancrist

25/4/22

EmericD said:

       stancrist said: If polymer cases need a greater thickness of material at the neck, how do you explain https://youtu.be/G1DCJsMKJb0?t=30 ?

The magic of the Internet. Now, take the 100,000 or about M240 in service in the US Army and try to duplicate the video, I'm pretty sure that the result will be much different.

Okay, if True Velocity is concealing a flaw in this product...

...perhaps there is also a significant flaw in this product?

EmericD

From: EmericD

25/4/22

stancrist said:

Okay, if True Velocity is concealing a flaw in this product...

I won't call that "a flaw".

The GAU-8 is using aluminium cases to save a lot of weight, even if everybody (including the designers) knows that in case of a burn thru, you are going to lose the gun.

Lead-free primers are less reliable than leaded primers, but people want to use them because you reduce lead emissions.

So, even if a composite case split a neck every one in a thousand rounds, there's a lot of scenarios where you could use them.

stancrist

From: stancrist

25/4/22

EmericD said:

I won't call that "a flaw".

The GAU-8 is using aluminium cases to save a lot of weight, even if everybody (including the designers) knows that in case of a burn thru, you are going to lose the gun.

How many GAU-8 guns have been lost to burn thru of the aluminum case?

EmericD said:

So, even if a composite case split a neck every one in a thousand rounds, there's a lot of scenarios where you could use them.

If the neck separates from a cartridge case every one in a thousand rounds, I think most soldiers would consider that a rather serious flaw.  I sure would.

And if the USAF lost a GAU-8 to case burn thru every 1000 rounds, it's a safe bet they'd consider it such a serious flaw they wouldn't use aluminum cases.

nincomp

From: nincomp

26/4/22

Thanks for finding those photos of the TV case.  I recall hearing a TV rep mentioning that they could optimize the powder column but was unsure if they had done so on their "normal" ammo.

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