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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 524205 views.
Apsyda

From: Apsyda

29-May

There is utility in the GPC idea. But not in the form of making a smaller battle rifle cartridge. The Russians were onto the right idea back in the 80s/90s.  

6mm diameter, 77gr projectile at 3700FPS muzzle velocity.

That to me does a lot better at stepping up the power and range of the 5.56NATO, without getting to the point of excessive recoil. A lighter bullet going faster is easier on the shooter than a heavier bullet going slower. And modern metallurgy should keep us out of the undesirable barrel wear zone for longer.

A 100yrd penetration requirement is reasonable, I'd agree there.

renatohm

From: renatohm

29-May

If I recall correctly, GPC never had the goal of defeating body armor at enormous distances, most people here said that GPC was to be accurate and effective enough to pin down the enemy so that HE could do the job.

Emeric uses the 'suppression index' (or something like that) for the 'effectiveness' part. Maybe I'm wrong but body armor or not, if you are being (almost) hit by pills that can do more than a paper cut you're pinned down, and troops carrying HE can finish the job.

If you can pin down the enemy (relatively) far away then you have the additional option of calling the big guns.

stancrist

From: stancrist

29-May

renatohm said:

If I recall correctly, GPC never had the goal of defeating body armor at enormous distances...

That's true, but his questions are:

"How important is the need to engage enemy targets at 600 metres?"

and

"How often will we need to engage enemies at this range?"

stancrist

From: stancrist

29-May

Apsyda said:

The Russians were onto the right idea back in the 80s/90s.  

6mm diameter, 77gr projectile at 3700FPS muzzle velocity.

heart_eyes  heart_eyes

Guardsman26

From: Guardsman26

30-May

Assuming it had a bullet made of hardened steel, a 6x49 mm cartridge with a 80-90 gram projectile fired at 3,500-3,700 fps would have no problem punching a hole through body armour above 300 metres. 

Stan, I think you have missed my point about the logistics of 6.5x48 mm Creedmoor ammunition versus the logistics of 6.8x51 mm NGSW. I estimate that the latter system will cost 30-40% more than 6.5x48 mm Creedmoor. 10% would be significant, but anything above 20% will kill NGSW. 

graylion

From: graylion

30-May

Guardsman26 said:

Assuming it had a bullet made of hardened steel, a 6x49 mm cartridge with a 80-90 gram projectile fired at 3,500-3,700 fps would have no problem punching a hole through body armour above 300 metres. 

what could be achieved with ~550 MPa?

EmericD

From: EmericD

30-May

Apsyda said:

6mm diameter, 77gr projectile at 3700FPS muzzle velocity.

If I recall correctly, this MV was achieved in pretty long barrel, around 72 cm / 28.3" in length.

Fire that cartridge from a 16" barrel and the ballistics will be less impressive.

renatohm

From: renatohm

30-May

NGSW goal is not to merely hit at 600 meters, it is to hit a target with enough energy to defeat body armor at such a distance.

Replace the ridiculous 'body armor defeat @ 600 m' to 'hit an unarmored target at 600 meters with lethal force' and you get very close to GPC.

As for the second part - how often do you HAVE to engage targets at 600 meters - I honestly don't know. My guesstimate is 'not often enough'.

Maybe something like 5.8x42 would be enough?

renatohm

From: renatohm

30-May

What if you resort to higher pressures, but not NGSW high?

stancrist

From: stancrist

30-May

renatohm said:

NGSW goal is not to merely hit at 600 meters, it is to hit a target with enough energy to defeat body armor at such a distance.

The question was not about terminal effects at 600 meters. 

The question was about the need to engage at 600 meters.

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