gatnerd said:

A number of countries are now copying the SVD Soviet swag and introduced a 7.62 DMR at squad level...

Which is somewhat ironic, since employment of the SVD at squad level was unique to the Afghanistan theatre (see Msg 3160).

Since then, having a DMR in each squad apparently was deemed no longer necessary.  Now there is only one DMR at platoon.

gatnerd said:

In general I'm very in favor of a 2 caliber Soviet/Russian configuration vs the US attempt / GPC attempt at having 1x caliber at the squad level.

I dunno.  Even disregarding the Level IV armor question, there is still the matter of the short effective range incurred by the majority of squad members in any two-caliber system.

I can't help but wonder if it may be possible to have one caliber that combines the advantages of both SCHV and full-power ammo into a single "have your cake and eat it" round.

stancrist said:

I can't help but wonder if it may be possible to have one caliber that combines the advantages of both SCHV and full-power ammo into a single "have your cake and eat it" round.

So maybe start by defining those advantages? And what round is that pic BTW? I had a bit of a look around and 6mm BR Norma springs to mind for nice long projectiles. I know that 6mm BR Reminton would fit into AR15, but that ship has sailed anyway.

That's 6mm SAW, with a hybrid case it could probably satisfy the conditions for a 6mm "Optimum" round 

graylion said:

So maybe start by defining those advantages?

SCHV:  large magazine capacity; "controllable" full-auto fire (in a rifle).

Full-power:  greater effective range; tracers visible to longer distance.

graylion said:

And what round is that pic BTW?

6x45 SAW.  Reportedly had 7.62x51 range, but usable in the M16 with slightly lengthened receiver.

Gr1ff1th said:

That's 6mm SAW, with a hybrid case it could probably satisfy the conditions for a 6mm "Optimum" round 

How about 6mm AR? Looks good with a hybrid case?

stancrist said:

       gatnerd said: In terms of PKM, I tend to use that interchangeably with PKP. But for awhile now Russia has fielded a 7.62 class LMG as their ‘SAW’.

Battle Order shows the Aussies were two decades ahead of the Russkis in fielding a 7.62 SAW.

P.S.  The US Army was three decades ahead of the Russians in fielding a 7.62 machine gun at the squad level.

YouTube

M113 to Bradley: Evolution of U.S. Mechanized Squads

Join the Brigade to support us and get access to exclusive perks: https://www.patreon.com/battleorderCheck out our merch shop for new prints, apparel and oth...

stancrist said:

I can't help but wonder if it may be possible to have one caliber that combines the advantages of both SCHV and full-power ammo into a single "have your cake and eat it" round.

yes, combining all advantages... and disadvantages. TANSTAAFL

stancrist said:

P.S. The US Army was three decades ahead of the Russians in fielding a 7.62 machine gun at the squad level.

back in around 1964 Soviet experts did a comparison of the new Soviet squad and platoon TOE (AKM/RPK) vs NATO (German, US and French squads and platoons)

Following results were obtained: It was found that at ranges of up to 400 m Soviet infantry had a distinctive edge over their NATO adversaries. On average, for units of comparable size, Soviet troops with AKM and RPK were expected to have a 20% higher hit rate than U.S. troops armed with M14 rifles and M60 machine guns, and a 100% higher rate than French troops with M1949/54 rifles and M1952 machine guns. At extended ranges, however, the tables turned in favor of NATO troops, mostly due to the larger number of rifle caliber machine guns per platoon and larger unit sizes.  At 800 m, U.S. troops were expected to perform approximately twice as effectively as Soviet troops.

However, this calculation did not include such important squad and platoon assets as the APC (BTR-60 or BMP-1 and their western counterparts)

mpopenker said:

yes, combining all advantages... and disadvantages. TANSTAAFL

Except the main disadvantages of full-power ammo -- weight, bulk, and recoil -- would be much less with 6mm SAW, while still having the range advantage.

mpopenker said:

back in around 1964 Soviet experts did a comparison of the new Soviet squad and platoon TOE (AKM/RPK) vs NATO (German, US and French squads and platoons)

Following results were obtained: It was found that at ranges of up to 400 m Soviet infantry had a distinctive edge over their NATO adversaries. On average, for units of comparable size, Soviet troops with AKM and RPK were expected to have a 20% higher hit rate than U.S. troops armed with M14 rifles and M60 machine guns... At extended ranges, however, the tables turned in favor of NATO troops, mostly due to the larger number of rifle caliber machine guns per platoon and larger unit sizes.  At 800 m, U.S. troops were expected to perform approximately twice as effectively as Soviet troops.

That seems reasonable.  I wonder if the results would be similar with the current 5.45x39/7.62x54 mix compared to 6.8x51 NGSW?