gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3433
    MEMBERS
  • 198181
    MESSAGES
  • 8
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 746015 views.
PRM2

From: PRM2

22-Sep

It is a sleek design, which looks like it is based on a scaled up Thales F90 (can somebody confirm this?).

I am intrigued as to why the XM7 doesn't have a forward assist, bearing in mind that almost every AR15/M16 derivative has got one, including the new Beretta described in the other thread. Why would this change be made to the well established ergonomics?

stancrist

From: stancrist

22-Sep

The article gatnerd linked to in Msg 3417 said the forward assist was deleted to reduce the XM7's weight.

EmericD

From: EmericD

23-Sep

PRM2 said:

That is an interesting real life gotcha. I could imagine the following type of event happening: In close contact with the enemy, mates dead or wounded, ammo running out. Only possible source of ammo is some belted, looks very similar to my 6.8x51, quickly de-link it and stuff into magazines. S**t the action won't close. Is it dirty due to number of rounds fired? No time to check, enemy is almost on me, kick the b*stard closed. Click. Possible outcomes: 1. Have an expensive jammed up club. 2. Keblam, dead or injured soldier.

Obviously, mixing 6.8x51 mm and 7.62x51 mm weapons in the same combat group is not going to be a wise move. France did that in the past with it's own 7.5x58 mm and German 8x57 mm, and it was not a success.

Given the fact that the US Army also want to convert the M240 to 6.8x51 mm, their idea is to totally get rid of the 7.62 mm NATO, and replace most front-line 5.56 mm with 6.8x51 mm.

PRM2

From: PRM2

23-Sep

Thanks for the information, coincidentally the thread just started on the 6.5 Creedmoor L129A2 also shows no forward assist (and there wasn't a forward assist on the previous L129A1 either)

PRM2

From: PRM2

23-Sep

Stand by for never ending meetings and anguished discussions on how to maintain NATO standardization, with echoes of similar events that happened in the 1950s.

EmericD

From: EmericD

23-Sep

PRM2 said:

Stand by for never ending meetings and anguished discussions on how to maintain NATO standardization, with echoes of similar events that happened in the 1950s.

Well, it's not a problem because the US isn't really talking about the 6.8 mm during NATO meetings, and some countries have to remind Uncle Sam about the need to write a STANAG about this round in a not too distant future.

Don't forget that from a US perspective, NATO standardization is not a "common set of requirements", but just an opportunity offered to "the rest of NATO countries" to operate smoothly with the US armies.

autogun

From: autogun

23-Sep

Several years ago I visited the Steyr Mannlicher factory as part of some consultancy work. In commenting on their future  military rifles, I pointed out that as the current trend was to field both 5.56mm and 7.62mm together, choosing a matched pair of weapons with the same controls, handling etc would have considerable attractions in simplifying maintenance and training. 

The logical next step for Steyr would therefore be to develop a 7.62mm-class AUG, rather than joining the overcrowded field of 5.56mm AR-15 derivatives. It would be nice if it happened!

  • Edited 23 September 2023 9:07  by  autogun
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

23-Sep

7.62 AUG would make me a happy panda. 
 

Thales 6.8 prototype shows a great path forward toward modernizing the AUG as well as boosting the power.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

23-Sep

EmericD said:

Well, it's not a problem because the US isn't really talking about the 6.8 mm during NATO meetings, and some countries have to remind Uncle Sam about the need to write a STANAG about this round in a not too distant future.

Even if they did this doesn't mean the round will be adopted by onyone else soon or ever. It just would mean the US had comunicated the bare minimum of spects to the NSO.

EmericD said:

Don't forget that from a US perspective, NATO standardization is not a "common set of requirements", but just an opportunity offered to "the rest of NATO countries" to operate smoothly with the US armies.

To be fair this is more or less the approach of all NATO members.
 

A STANAG has nothing to do with a common set of requirements. Its also not the job of the NSO to come up with such.
They just develop and formulate the technical specification for an allready existing piece of equipment that one member nation asks them too.
There are common requirements and minimum standards defined by STANAGs but these are not for specific pieces of equipment but for categories and mostly for evaluation and comparison purposes.
In any case the specs given by STANAGs and AOPs are so loose and especially the tolerances and measurement methods are so poorly defined that interchangeability is more or less a dream.
This is the reason for the introduction of the NATO shamrock symbol in addition to the NATO cross. The latter being around for a long time but really only means "the ammo will fit into the chamber" the much younger latter actually means "wil fit the chamber and will work (at least once)".

PRM2

From: PRM2

23-Sep

Is it naive to hope that partner nations retain the knowledge of historical events and work together to avoid past mistakes?

The probable short term outcome will be that everyone except the US will retain both 5.56 and 7.62x51 for their primary infantry small arm calibres, as being good enough, whilst making small incremental changes to cartridge materials to save weight. I can't help but be disappointed that LSAT has come to naught and will only be remembered as a 'what if', as with .276 Pedersen and .280 British (the original loading). However, I think that Churchill made the correct call in 1951, going against the Defence Staff, to prioritise NATO standardization despite the technical allure of the EM2 and the Taden.

It also isn't said enough that we are very fortunate in Europe to have retained the substantial US commitment to NATO and that the US understandably gets disillusioned when some partner nations don't meet their defense budget commitments (I'm not having a go at either the UK or France here). 

TOP