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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons, particularly in larger calibres (12.7+mm).

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 68529 views.
poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

2-Jun

It should be quite heavy/important :D

 

I mean, the heavier the cartridge, the less ammo the soldier should carry.

Actually, SiG design is the most conservative of the three in the bad sense of the term. It's like a bimetallic expression of risk aversion.

 

One officer told me that such cartridge has not military sense, since it is going to be more expensive and heavier than current ones and the other two

EmericD

From: EmericD

2-Jun

autogun said...

I wonder how much weight (literally and metaphorically) will be given to ammo weight in the evaluation? As I recall, the SIG Sauer ammo is significantly heavier than either of the other two.

Well, given the program roadmap, and the wide difference in contenders technical risk / maturity, I fear that the ammo weight will be the least interesting parameter.

I mean, the US Army wants to field a system in the next years, so the logical choice is to first select a weapon / ammo that reach the threshold requirements for safety and reliability. Durability could be fixed during the program development phase, but I think that no-one would select an unsafe / unreliable system as a starting point simply because the round fired is 4-5 g lighter (around 17 g for the TVCM, 18 g for the Textron and 22 g for the SIG).

SIG is also considering releasing the .277 Fury on the commercial market, so they are confident that their system is 100% safe, and that no ammo will explode in front of the user face. That's probably not the case for Textron and GDOTS.

The way I see things, the SIG offer is probably not the one providing the best weight reduction, but it should ticks all the "threshold" requirements that are mandatory. If the GDOTS or Textron submissions are not sufficiently matures, they will miss some mandatory requirements and be excluded from the competition.

If they are mature enough, then system weight will be taken into account (and also the price) but the manufacturers had "only" ~2 years (march 2018 - march 2020) to prepare their submissions, that's quite short.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

2-Jun

SIG's argument is it weighs 20% less than conventional cases getting similar performance to the 6.8 Bleedmoor.

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

2-Jun

Considering every option is several pounds heavier than what the soldier is carrying now, I expect only lip service to be paid to weight, nothing more.

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

2-Jun

GDOTS ammo is scheduled to hit the commercial market this year.

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

2-Jun

Don't believe anything SIG says.

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

2-Jun

I eagerly await the soldier's load increasing by another 15 pounds, with 5 of those being in his weapon alone.

autogun

From: autogun

3-Jun

I find the process of evaluating and scoring the various characteristics of competing systems to be fascinating, as I've mentioned before. It doesn't usually get discussed much by those not directly involved, but the choice of weighting given to different characteristics can easily affect the outcome of the competition (juggling with this can allow those in charge to favour their preferred candidate).

For example, take ammo weight: if the requirement is to achieve a 20% saving over 7.62 mm (I don't know whether or not that's the case, this is just a "what if?"), then the SIG round will not achieve this (22 g vs c.24 g). So is this a disqualification issue, or will they merely lose points? OTOH, the GD ammo will easily achieve this with a margin to spare. So do they get extra points for making a bigger saving? After all, if the GD ammo at 17 g is 5 g per round lighter than the SIG's, that amounts to a 200-round ammo load weighing a whole kilo less, which I would have thought is non-trivial, given all of the issues over excessive weight.

All of this obviously assumes that all of the contenders' ammo meets the military's technical requirements.

 

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

3-Jun

The weight metrics are all a sham so far as I can tell. You need a "20% reduction in weight vs comparable brass cased ammo". Yet, SIG offers no weight reduction technology whatsoever (their ammunition is heavier than a dimensionally similar steel cased round). But, they run much higher pressure. So that's where the "reduction" comes from, hurdy-durr!

EmericD

From: EmericD

3-Jun

QuintusO said...

GDOTS ammo is scheduled to hit the commercial market this year.

That would be great, along with more VLD bullets...

So they are also going to release a rifle with the ammo ?

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