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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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Hi Point carbine   Non-military topics

Started 10/6/20 by bigkid64801; 2322 views.
EdGlaze

From: EdGlaze

1-Oct


10 Aug 21

 

 

 


2 Aug 21

 

 

 

smg762

From: smg762

1-Oct

The 10mm version gives more bang for buck. About 1200ft lbs just like a 556.   9mm version....about 600ft lbs energy

In reply toRe: msg 8
Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

1-Oct

But only with the proper loads. Most 10mm isn't anymore powerful than .40 S&W or .45 ACP.

smg762

From: smg762

1-Oct

If one had a hypothetical 90k PSI round, would it be hard to design a pistol around it.. the HK4.6 has 62k...would you need a desert eagle type gas mechanism like a rifle

EwingGreg

From: EwingGreg

1-Oct

you would not want to try to carry a direct blowback weapon for a 90k psi round, I suspect

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

2-Oct

Considering that most pistols currently run below 35k psi even going to 60k would get you a decent amount more performance without having to resort to making $3000 pistols to handle your 90k psi ammo.

The Russians already have some stuff like this especially for the gsh 18 which is rotary locked rather than tilting bbl lock and unlock.

My personal inclination would be to run as high a pressure as possible as you can safely run in shellshock lightweight cases. 

I think that pairing that with lighter better shaped bullets like the handgun EPR round developed for MHS in a caliber that's sub 9mm so you can squeak out a tiny bit more L:D Is probably the way to go.

Especially since we already know you can make shockingly cheap and functional pistols similar to gsh18 to fire your new round of which you could probably get an extra 2 rounds of capacity in a compact sized pistol or 3 rounds in a full size.

With that combination you'd physically have more rounds per magazine at about half or so the weight of 115 or 147 grain brass case.

Going with those constraints would easily net you something capable of penetrating 3a with lethal behind armor wound out to beyond the practical range most army pistol users are trained to and to minimum 50 Meters from an MP/Smg Without anything exotic or expensive.

This specific set of compromises I'm thinking about is basically an acknowledgement that the pistol is a weapon of last resort, pretty much of non-existent importance in the big scheme of things, and is frankly hotly debated as to whether it's worth the weight of gun holster and spare mags on already overloaded troops.

What I'm proposing would be cheaper, (including the ammo since shellshock style cases are cheaper than brass) actually have some utility against soft armor and even some helmets, and would reduce the weight you are spending to equip someone with a pistol plus enough rounds and mags to matter.

It's sorta the opposite of exciting though since yes you'd be getting something that performs substantially better than 9x19 (and with lighter smaller diameter rounds and cases more amenable to female ergonomics as well as marksmanship since the grip won't be as girthy and the recoil would drop 20-50% giving much better rapid aimed fire capability)

But it's definitely not going to be any closer to making a handheld rifle. 

Instead what you'd end up with is something that takes advantage of the last century of technical tactical and other advancements to do pistol things substantially better

smg762

From: smg762

2-Oct

I was thinking a tround (doublestack) or a lockless, squared case which would single stack. Both allow for a much larger round in the grip.

As you mentioned these shapes might not be ideal for 75k PSI.

So basically you might be able to stretch to 75k or so if the gun uses more of a rifle mechanism eg.

A rotatig bolt or gas operation..

But would there be safety concerns with a high PSI in a handgun..?

My own design has a 6mm ( yes,  a Fabrl) totally telescoped to the bottom of the case. To hold the bearing surface in place theres a neck that runs around the booster charge (and the bullet). 

In other words the neck is at the bottom of the case. 

Pistol has a rear extension like the MP9 to allow that beefy rifle mechanism.

Boberg reverse feed is used to shorten the gun and allow a big flash hider. 

With a bullpup rifle (with squeezebore/gain twist)  it should allow 6mm creedmore energy

Mustrakrakis

From: Mustrakrakis

2-Oct

roguetechie said:

The Russians already have some stuff like this especially for the gsh 18 which is rotary locked rather than tilting bbl lock and unlock.

And is rated for ammunition that's running at 41,000 PSI.  Not 60k.  Not 90k.

Damn those weak and pathetic Western tilting block pistols that can't run 9mm +P+.  Or can they?

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

3-Oct

The Russians actually have 4.5mm dual environment round for it that's crazy wacky and has to be generating ludicrous pressures.

I'm let's say skeptical of where you got your numbers for ALL the Russian AP stuff they fling out of gsh-18.

I love how some people feel the need to defend mediocrity though.

There's more than one reason why I think a gsh-18 like pistol would be the way to go though.

One of which is even manufacturing it to a high standard you could pump them out for ridiculously cheap which is a virtue on it's own.

And yes, you can do all sorts of inadvisable shit with tilting link guns as long as you're willing to accept dramatically accelerated wear and a bunch of other "fun" Little things like that.

And none of this changes the fact that if you really do go big boy pressure in a handgun a tilting link is the worst possible option. Probably why people who have done stuff like this Don't use it huh

Mustrakrakis

From: Mustrakrakis

5-Oct

roguetechie said:

The Russians actually have 4.5mm dual environment round for it that's crazy wacky and has to be generating ludicrous pressures.

That wasn't what we were talking about.

roguetechie said:

I'm let's say skeptical of where you got your numbers for ALL the Russian AP stuff they fling out of gsh-18.

I'm let's say skeptical of Russian numbers sometimes.  On a related note, tilting barrels and rotary barrels (in the case of the Gsh-18) are both generally short recoil.  If there is a failure due to high (but not ridiculous, blow-the-fucking-chamber-hood-off) pressure, is it generally because the action was not strong enough?  Was it not insufficient recoil spring pressure or case strength?  I have my biases, so I have to ask questions.

If you have better numbers from more reputable sources, feel free to provide them.  I'm here to learn.

roguetechie said:

I love how some people feel the need to defend mediocrity though.

If pointing out the obvious is defending mediocrity...well, okay.  Guilty.  I wasn't going for that though.

roguetechie said:

There's more than one reason why I think a gsh-18 like pistol would be the way to go though. One of which is even manufacturing it to a high standard you could pump them out for ridiculously cheap which is a virtue on it's own.

Of course.  Since you seem to have some experience with shooting and manufacturing the Gsh-18, I'm sure that you'll be willing to explain this in further detail.  It may be very simple to machine a barrel and slide combination with an array of locking lugs that must match each other fairly closely, but I'm not aware of it.  I'm admittedly not an engineer though, so my request is genuine.  I'd love to know how this is cheaper.  Certain manufacturers might like to know that too, as they're the ones that could potentially profit from it.  Or do they not want to be more profitable?

roguetechie said:

And yes, you can do all sorts of inadvisable shit with tilting link guns as long as you're willing to accept dramatically accelerated wear and a bunch of other "fun" Little things like that.

How are the Gsh-18's holding up over high round counts?  If they're doing well, is that because of the rotary action?  I actually know nothing about this.  It's an honest question.

roguetechie said:

And none of this changes the fact that if you really do go big boy pressure in a handgun a tilting link is the worst possible option. Probably why people who have done stuff like this Don't use it huh

It's a pistol.  If you're trying to punch holes in ceramic with it, you've already fucked up.  Tilting barrel isn't great, but it's fine.  I don't see how making the geometry of the barrel and the slide more complicated is going to reduce the price.  I'm not even sure that it would make the resulting pistol stronger in practical terms.

If you want to talk about case strength, that's another discussion.  There is definitely room for improvement there.

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