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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons, particularly in larger calibres (12.7+mm).

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What is the US Army up to?   Ammunition <20mm

Started 8-Aug by autogun; 4400 views.
Greg (N9NWO)

From: Greg (N9NWO)

18-Aug

I have 30 years of military service.  Last combat tour just before I turned 60.  I can take it.

I have been looking for a forum to discuss what we need to develop.  I have read Anthony Williams articles on the GPC and PDW.  

We are getting a new system (cartridge, rifle, SAW).  When I was in Afghanistan the tactical HUMINT teams were using short barreled M4s in 5.56.   This was due to working out of up armored HUMVEES.  And having to enter buildings.  A bullpup like the Tavor would be nice but the Army will not go for it.

Not sure what cartridge would make a good PDW.  PDW being definded as a SBR with 9 to 11" barrel, gas piston and folding stock.

nincomp

From: nincomp

18-Aug

I don't know why the US has not looked more into folding-stock variants of the AR15.  The Z-M LR-300 series with a folding stock was produced for several years in the early 2000's and I think that I recall an OLY Arms pistol setup that had no stock.  

Greg (N9NWO)

From: Greg (N9NWO)

18-Aug

I would add that the M1 Carbine was the first PDW as there was concerns over the .45 ACP in the 1911 pistol, Thompson and M3 Grease gun.   That was a 7.62x33

We need to have a PDW that is able to hit out to 300 m yet be suppressed.  Pistol ammo, even the 6.5x25, is just not able to do that.  Not even sure if the 5.7x28 would be able.

Thus we need a SBR with folding stock.  Barrel 9-12".   The army is looking at the 300 BLK but  a 6.8mm could be used.

SIG seems to be the preferred vendor.  They already have a kit to convert M4 platforms over to a PDW.
https://www.sigsauer.com/store/mcx-rattler-upper-assembly-5-5-300blk.html

https://www.sigsauer.com/store/sig-mcx-rattler-sbr.html

Mustrakrakis

From: Mustrakrakis

18-Aug

With regards to recycling receivers, I’ve actually seen it before.  When we got our fancy new FN-made A3’s in 2004, a couple of the things had beat-to-shit (sorry, "battle worn"; apparently people pay extra for this look nowadays) Colt-marked A1 lowers.  I don’t think that they left FN in that configuration, but that’s exactly how they arrived from Crane.  

Such fuckery at the depots was business as usual for the era.  It may be different now, but I’m still wondering what the back story behind that was.  Was this a sanctioned activity or just well-meaning jokers with too much time on their hands cleaning out the junkpile by human centipeding flatlined antiques and new parts into Frankenstein rifles?  We’ll likely never know for sure, but if it’s been done once, it can be done again.

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

18-Aug

nincomp said:

Greg, I apologize if you feel insulted.

Everyone here is so sensitive. I don't even remember the last time I lost my cool and insulted someone. But now you're apologizing for me preemptively. C'mon, I think you guys know deep down I didn't earn that!

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

18-Aug

I also think it's funny that you threw a couple of Tony's articles out there without mentioning any of the fourteen billion pieces I published.

I guess you haven't bought any toilet paper recently, eh??? ;)

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

18-Aug

Greg (N9NWO) said:

I have been looking for a forum to discuss what we need to develop.  I have read Anthony Williams articles on the GPC and PDW.  

Sounds like the Army's already made up its mind, to be honest. Not trying to be an asshole, but you might be a bit late to the party. I very publicly tried to influence the conversation for years and years and got nowhere.

Greg (N9NWO) said:

A bullpup like the Tavor would be nice but the Army will not go for it.

I suspect it would be "nice" until you actually had to use it. I say this as a bullpup owner myself.

Greg (N9NWO) said:

Not sure what cartridge would make a good PDW.  PDW being definded as a SBR with 9 to 11" barrel, gas piston and folding stock.

Army already bought SCW. I suspect they'll not deviate from that for a while yet (it was a real labor of love to even get that in the first place).

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

18-Aug

nincomp said:

I don't know why the US has not looked more into folding-stock variants of the AR15.  The Z-M LR-300 series with a folding stock was produced for several years in the early 2000's and I think that I recall an OLY Arms pistol setup that had no stock.  

SIG's NGSW is a folding stock variant of the AR-15.

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

18-Aug

Greg (N9NWO) said:

I would add that the M1 Carbine was the first PDW as there was concerns over the .45 ACP in the 1911 pistol, Thompson and M3 Grease gun.   That was a 7.62x33

Notably, the 1911 was not exactly removed from inventory thereafter.

The gun that eventually filled that role was the M4, which has been highly successful even outside the PDW role.

Greg (N9NWO) said:

We need to have a PDW that is able to hit out to 300 m yet be suppressed.

So an M4 Carbine?

Greg (N9NWO) said:

Pistol ammo, even the 6.5x25, is just not able to do that.  Not even sure if the 5.7x28 would be able.

OK but we have M4 Carbines.

Greg (N9NWO) said:

Thus we need a SBR with folding stock.

Why?

 

Greg (N9NWO) said:

Barrel 9-12".   The army is looking at the 300 BLK but  a 6.8mm could be used.

I highly doubt the Army is looking at .300 Blackout, gonna need a source on that one. 6.8x43mm is a dead round. Forget about it.

Or do you mean SOCOM looking at them? SOCOM is SOCOM.

 

Greg (N9NWO) said:

SIG seems to be the preferred vendor.  They already have a kit to convert M4 platforms over to a PDW. https://www.sigsauer.com/store/mcx-rattler-upper-assembly-5-5-300blk.html https://www.sigsauer.com/store/sig-mcx-rattler-sbr.html

Ah good, we can forgo the entire procurement process and just send money to SIG as a sort of slush fund. I know that will make Ron Cohen happy!

Mustrakrakis

From: Mustrakrakis

18-Aug

If your PDW concept is simply a SBR with a 9 to 11 inch barrel, a better question might be, "What cartridges won’t work?"  We’ve spent the last few years on this forum beating that particular horse to death, beating it some more, and then frantically performing CPR on it so that we could repeat the process a few more times.

Easy answer?  5.56mm.

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