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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons, particularly in larger calibres (12.7+mm).

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What is the US Army up to?   Ammunition <20mm

Started 8-Aug by autogun; 4395 views.
QuintusO

From: QuintusO

21-Aug

Why not?

I think the people who keep talking about PDWs need to be able to answer questions like that.

stancrist

From: stancrist

21-Aug

Farmplinker said:

Are you suggesting a 12" 7.62 NATO wouldn't be a good PDW?

Looks pretty good to me.  Could use a higher capacity magazine, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c55NyhNuZwg

Jeff (Jefffar)

From: Jeff (Jefffar)

22-Aug

Farmplinker said:

Are you suggesting a 12" 7.62 NATO wouldn't be a good PDW?

Well there was the MC-51K

UK FR ordnance made weapons info key. Weapons Guns, Guns And Ammo, Battle Rifle, Submachine Gun, Assault Rifle, Cool Guns, Military Weapons, Survival, Airsoft

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

22-Aug

Why not? Because I doubt the average person who needs one will be required to practice with one enough. Also, the tendency is to go lighter for a PDW, which hurts 7.62 NATO. I am firmly in the M4 with red dot or low powered scope camp.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

22-Aug

I wish I could have one of those!

Unfortunately, I am afraid most people using one won't practice enough to be as good as the guy in the video.

Red7272

From: Red7272

22-Aug

RovingPedant said:

My take is that an M4 is a decent enough PDW if you have a large number of them in service with an established logistics chain.

It's also far easier to shoot well than a more abbreviated weapon. As noted previously, PDWs are really only for some vehicle crews. Everybody else can get by with rifles, and pistols if green on blue is an issue. 

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

22-Aug

Practice enough to do what? Why do they need to be so light? The cooks aren't hauling heavy loads. 

I'm not seriously suggesting 7.62 PDWs here, my point is everyone is arguing about this with no established framework.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

22-Aug

This is an important point that seems to be getting missed a lot.

Whatever gun you assign to this sort of role is going to get checked out twice a year for familiarization and quals most years. In the run up to a deployment they may get between 2 & 6 extra chances to practice on top of their training to do their actual job for the deployment.

Anyone whose spent any time teaching people to shoot or shooting with people who shoot very infrequently has seen that you can very quickly get someone up to the point of hitting torso sized targets at between 50 & 100 yards with a 5.56 carbine In a magazine or two. 

Whereas it can take way more ammo than many people Even bring per shooting session to get someone on paper at 25 yards with smaller or weirder stuff.

And this is the Achilles heel in most of the ideas being batted around here. The vast majority of actual users who will depend on these things just aren't going to have the time, opportunity, and or desire to put down 500-1000 rounds of familiarization fire and practice right before they might have to fight for their life with whatever they get handed.

Put bluntly, this sort of people are an almost ideal match for 5.56 where from zero to 300 yards as long as the sites are pointed at somewhere on their targets body the bullets have a good chance of hitting. Slap a red dot holosight or lpvo on there and there's even a good chance they can hit fleeting targets and briefly exposed partial silhouettes.

The other things people are suggesting are pretty uniformly nowhere near as forgiving and or require "good hits" to have a decent statistical likelihood of them doing much.

Almost everyone otoh, can half ass it and still get hits with an m4 that has some sort of optic.

stancrist

From: stancrist

22-Aug

Farmplinker said:

I wish I could have one of those!

Unfortunately, I am afraid most people using one won't practice enough to be as good as the guy in the video.

I totally agree, with both points.  It does look very cool, though.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

22-Aug

Totally agree. Personally, I see new PDW talk driven by 1. M4 sucks BS, 2. 5.56 sucks BS, 3. You just can't issue more suppressors ideology, and 4. The US Army basically got it right with the Light Rifle concept before WW2, and anything that old has to be wrong.

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