Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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LMAO Germany adopts an AR-15   Small Arms <20mm

Started 14/9/20 by QuintusO; 43240 views.

From: gatnerd


Wow, that is very P-magy.

Surprised they didn't license the design, or partner with Magpul, given that magpul has a number of foreign partners. 

Or at a minimum, just change the external grip surface and magazine cover to a less obvious 'homage' to the PMAG. 


From: Farmplinker


Maybe call the large bore double rifles "anti-material" since they were tried as anti-tank guns in WW1?

In reply toRe: msg 20
Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)


Seems there are also some doubts Hanael could even handle the production.

''Zudem gibt es mittlerweile erhebliche Zweifel, dass Hanel dieses Gewehr in Deutschland produzieren kann''.

In addition the tender for DMR for SF/Feldjäger G26 was just stopped as well. A small tender (10 prototypes and 135 service firearms and 500.000 rounds of ammo) but i can imagine similar players and issues 

''Das Bundesamt für Ausrüstung, Informationstechnik und Nutzung der Bundeswehr (BAAINBw) hat die Ausschreibung für das Projekt G26 „Scharfschützengewehr kurze Reichweite für SpezKr/Feldjäger“ – eine Präzisionswaffe im Kaliber 7,62 mm x 51 – abgebrochen...


Kurzfassung der Konstruktionsmerkmale

  • Kaliber 7,62 mm x 51 NATO,
  • Halbautomatischer Gasdrucklader, semi auto gas operated
  • Beidseitige Bedienbarkeit, ambidextreus
  • Mündungsbremse, Muzzlebrake
  • Signaturdämpfersatz, bestehend aus Signaturdämpfer kompakt, Signaturdämpfer Unterschall, Signaturdämpfer Training,  Suppresors compact and subsonic model +training
  • STANAG 4694 Schienen an Handschutz und Waffenoberseite, Rails alround
  • Länge ohne Mündungsbremse und mit eingeschobener Schulterstütze maximal 900 mm, Max lenght 900mm with the muzzlebrake and stock in shortest setting
  • Einsatz in Gebieten mit den Klimakategorien A 1-3, B 1-3, C 1-2* und M 1-3 gemäß STANAG 4370 ohne Einschränkung der Funktionalität; *Mit Einschränkung der Batterielebensdauern, Operationaly effective in Climate zones A1-3,B1-2,C1-2 M1-3 without any limitations.(*aside from battery life) 
  • Lebensdauer des Gehäuses mindestens 6000 Schuss; Lebensdauer des Rohres mindestens 6000 Schuss, minimal 6000 round reciever and barrel life.
  • Maximal 4,5 kg Gesamtgewicht Waffe ohne Mündungsbremse, Visiereinrichtung und Zubehör, mit Montageschienen und leerem Magazin (10 Schuss), Max 4.5kg empty with empty mag,without muzzlebrake , sights and accesories
  • Zubehör: Magazine 10 Schuss, Magazine 20 Schuss, Reinigungsgerät, Hülsenfangsack, Ladelehren, Schnittmodell, Sonderwerkzeugsätze, Drehmomentsätze. 
  • Sonstige wichtige Merkmale: Farbgebung Grau (Sniper grau), Verstellbare Gasabnahme, 
    Munitionserstpakete für Integrierte Nachweisführung sowie Serie
    Important features Sniper Gray color , adjustable gas block.Innitial Ammo batches for testing and service 

Evaluation testing would be done with 5 test arms and 20.000 rounds of ammo

Even before this realy kicked off there were concerns within the BW that 6.5 Creedmoor DMR should be considered instead of 7.62x51

In reply toRe: msg 41
Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)


It seems that Magpul magazine clone is not the only patent issue H&K is questioning the other one is patents concerning the solutions for 'over the beach' capability of the HK arms that Haenel is supposedly infringing upon.

In reply toRe: msg 59

From: tidusyuki


Can someone explain how the procedure exactly to file a patents infringement,

Does HK bought the gun and inspect it thoroughly, by measuring each parts dimensions or something like that?

I don't understand much, for examples, the magpul magazine, can i make something similar to it but with some minor tweaking like extra grip pattern or altering the pattern dimensions, etc?

And the OTB feature, which part was it in the Haenel? As far as i know, 416 otb features mention things like buffer tube drainage hole, bcg hole, and specially designed barrel extension. 

Would it be considered a patent infringement if i designed similar concept but with different hole locations and dimensions?

  • Edited 27 October 2020 23:21  by  tidusyuki
Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)


If i understood correctly Haenel says HK based their claim in regards to IP infringement of their 'over the beach' features on civilian version CR556, but HK is probably just throwing the mud at the wall till something sticks, as i mentioned. 

Thes designs are so deeply crossbred that it would be strange if there was not at least an allegation of  IP infringement. In any case, patent rights were never really part of the tender process  and now HK forced the whole thing that will ultimately result in this being applied for all future BW tenders as well.  Issues of IP should not be the job of the government (BW) tenders but manufacturers.

In reply toRe: msg 61
Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)


Anyone following this in German media  ,bug boys games in action HK got prosecutors to raid Hanael offices , it seems the magazine issue is not important any more.

Meanwhile Hanael is of course lobbying politicians to save the deal.

One thing that is a bit funny is that HK claims its gun is was copied to a degree where you can drop in Hanael bolt and bolt carrier into HK416 and it will fire and cycle as if using an original bolt, HK made a video show dissembling a Hanael rifle for parts and comparing them to HK parts

This show will continue in the courts some time Summer 2021

sklavische Nachbau -slavic reproduction is very German term for 1:1 copy

''Beim Patentstreit geht es zunächst um das  Over-the-beach-Patent (OTB). Diese Over-the-beach-Fähigkeit hatte die Bundeswehr in der Sturmgewehr-Ausschreibung zwingend gefordert. Dabei muss eine Waffe nach dem Auftauchen aus dem Wasser innerhalb kürzester Zeit sofort schießen können.

„Wir werfen Haenel vor, dieses gut zehn Jahre alte Patent sowohl beim CR 223 als auch beim MK556 zu verletzen“, so Seliger. Auch der mit dem Video nachgewiesene „sklavische Nachbau“ des HK 416 werde Gegenstand des Verfahrens vor dem Landgericht Düsseldorf sein.''


From: JPeelen


According to somewhat less sensational reporting in Germany, Haenel was not raided. It was visited by the external patent law expert hired by Bundeswehr to form  neutral opinion on the matter. 

Marco Seliger is the spokesperson for H&K. His statements are therefore not neutral. That parts can be exchanged does tell us exactly nothing about the patent situation. For example, a SIG P210 magazine can be used in a Walther P38. Apart from that, exact dimensions of mechanisms are normally not given in a patent document.

Disclosure: Based on what we know today, I think neither the Haenel nor the H&K proposal should be the future Bundeswehr assault rifle.    


From: gatnerd


JPeelen said:

Disclosure: Based on what we know today, I think neither the Haenel nor the H&K proposal should be the future Bundeswehr assault rifle