autogun

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by autogun

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons, particularly in larger calibres (12.7+mm).

  • 3174
    MEMBERS
  • 180388
    MESSAGES
  • 39
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

Stryker 30 mm vs 105 mm?    Army Guns 20+mm

Started 29-Sep by autogun; 3229 views.
Msg 7728.21 deleted
Red7272

From: Red7272

3-Oct

RovingPedant said:

But none of those vehicles or turrets would be resistant to an RPG 29 so why would they be any better than a NEMO on an 8x8 chassis?

Warrior with the full armour package was close in 1990.  And Nemo has no direct fire rounds so it is limited to spun 120 mm HE at very low velocities and minimal penetration. 105 mm has a longer point blank range, better penetration, a range of projectile types in production and the option of AT rounds. The vehicle will be too heavy and expensive to be used as a artillery vehicle so why even use a mortar?

The people who make the biggest use of this style of vehicle though use PGMs and twin 30 mm cannon, so the point is moot anyway. 

The new version drops the AGLs.

There is also the 57 mm AGL RWS the Russians are just starting to field. It has an airburst/HESH round if initial reports are to be believed.

  • Edited 03 October 2020 10:45  by  Red7272
graylion

From: graylion

3-Oct

Red7272 said:

The US had 500 Abrams knocked out in Iraq by infantry AT and IEDs with minimal crew losses because of the vehicle protection. Bradleys were withdrawn because they were a deathtrap in comparison.

Is this why the USMC is getting rid of tanks?

RovingPedant

From: RovingPedant

3-Oct

 

Red7272 said...

Warrior with the full armour package was close in 1990.

Given how much of a monster RPG 29 is, and given the recorded instances of Warrior in Iraq 2003-2011 (i.e with better armour fits) being penetrated by RPG 7 I find that most unlikely. in any case the Abbot turret would be fragment and small arms only, so the jump to resisting RPG 29 would be massive ( pun intended)

Red7272 said...

And Nemo has no direct fire rounds so it is limited to spun 120 mm HE at very low velocities and minimal penetration.

What is a direct fire round? I’m not familiar with any such distinction in terms of ammunition. Or that the method of stabilisation could be changed.

120mm mortar would be lower velocity and lighter construction than a 105mm shell, so I can see that it would be less effective at penetrating targets, but it does carry more explosive because of this lighter construcion.

Red7272 said...

105 mm has a longer point blank range, better penetration, a range of projectile types in production and the option of AT rounds

Why should a longer point blank range matter? fire control exists for everything these days* and your concept of use has them engaging from less than 500m anyway.

There’s a good selection of ammunition available for 120mm mortar too.

* so point blank is much less important in determining ability to hit something than it once was

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

3-Oct

No, they think they'll be of limited value for their new strategy. The plan is they'll deploy small groups of Marines to islands with ASMs, and sink/mission kill enemy shipping. That's what I have read, anyway.

graylion

From: graylion

3-Oct

RovingPedant said:

What is a direct fire round? I’m not familiar with any such distinction in terms of ammunition. Or that the method of stabilisation could be changed. 120mm mortar would be lower velocity and lighter construction than a 105mm shell, so I can see that it would be less effective at penetrating targets, but it does carry more explosive because of this lighter construcion.

HESH might be useful

ZailC

From: ZailC

3-Oct

Never heard of plans for Marines attacking enemy shipping with tanks or ASMs. Main problem with tanks is the assault shipping they require to get into battle and their near-front-line logistical requirements. Deck space and tonnage across-the-beach better spent on getting Marines into action. 

In reply toRe: msg 27
taschoene

From: taschoene

3-Oct

ZailC said:

Never heard of plans for Marines attacking enemy shipping with tanks or ASMs.

Pivoting to antiship and getting rid of tanks is a new concept as of a year or two ago. 

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2020/03/05/to-combat-the-china-threat-us-marine-corps-declares-ship-killing-missile-systems-its-top-priority/

Red7272

From: Red7272

4-Oct

RovingPedant said:

What is a direct fire round? I’m not familiar with any such distinction in terms of ammunition. Or that the method of stabilisation could be changed. 120mm mortar would be lower velocity and lighter construction than a 105mm shell, so I can see that it would be less effective at penetrating targets.

Not breaking on hitting a stone wall?   Being accurate enough to hit a window at 2,000 metres. It's all pretty basic stuff.

RovingPedant said:

but it does carry more explosive because of this lighter construcion.

3 versus 4 kg doesn't matter.

RovingPedant said:

There’s a good selection of ammunition available for 120mm mortar too.

Such as?

RovingPedant said:

and your concept of use has them engaging from less than 500m anyway.

Your concept assumes the enemy don't move, which is also unrealistic.

autogun

From: autogun

4-Oct

There is a wide range of 120 mm mortar bombs in production, in two flavours: for rifled (e.g. USMC) or smoothbored barrels.

Apart from the usual HE, smoke and illum, they can be adapted with PGM kits (SAL)  to achieve great accuracy (and even more with purpose-designed PGMs). There are also cargo munitions with various types of bomblet. The Russians and the Chinese both make use of fire support vehicles armed with 120 mm rifled mortar/howitzers, with a range of ammo including HEAT. I have previously mentioned ATGMs and Strix, and the advantages of high elevation, particularly in urban fighting, where the ability to vary the propellant charges allows the mortar to lob bombs up at low velocity so that they come to earth on a steep trajectory - very useful in built-up areas or forests.

A tank gun has some specific advantages in direct fire, but it is nowhere near as versatile. 

TOP