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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons, particularly in larger calibres (12.7+mm).

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XM-25 here we go again...   Army Guns 20+mm

Started 9-Nov by autogun; 5269 views.
autogun

From: autogun

9-Nov

https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/11/09/us-army-seeking-increased-lethality-grenade-launcher-with-new-precision-grenadier-system/

The US Army is seeking to increase the lethality offered by its 40mm grenade launchers. For decades the M203 has been the US Army’s go to under barrel grenade launcher, only recently has the M320 from Heckler & Koch surpassed it. Now the U.S. Army’s Army Contracting Command have launched a search for a new Precision Grenadier System or PGS.

The US Army’s Request for Information (RFI) was issued on behalf of Product Manager Individual Weapons to “identify potential sources for a Precision Grenadier System (PGS) or any technologies towards this objective.” The RFI explains that the PGS is envisaged to be:

a man portable integrated weapon system that enables precision engagements to destroy personnel targets in defilade and in the open with increased lethality and precision compared to the legacy M203/M320 grenade launchers. The PGS provides overmatch to comparable threat grenade launchers in near peer formations in future operating environments (jungle, urban, woodland, subterranean, desert, day/night). The PGS is envisioned to consist of a weapon, a fire control, and a suite of ammunition which enables the user to engage targets in defilade/cover, hovering UAS targets, conduct door breaching, engage close combat targets, and light armored targets.

From this description it appears that they are seeking a stand alone weapon not an under barrel launcher. It seems they are seeking a weapon which can fulfil some of the aims of the old XM29 Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW) program that finally saw the emergence of the stand alone XM25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement System which after a lengthy gestation period and some field trials in Afghanistan was finally abandoned in July 2018.

stancrist

From: stancrist

9-Nov

The concept of an air burst grenade seems logical.  Perhaps this time the caliber will be significantly bigger than 25mm?

taschoene

From: taschoene

9-Nov

My first guess was this is looking at 40x51mm medium-velocity grenades.  But on a closer read, I think they want something much more demanding :

"After trigger pull, time of flight to target no greater than 3 seconds to 500 meters."

40x51mm usually has an MV around 120m/s, which isn't fast enough for this requirement.  You'd need 40x53mm at 240m/s to approach it.  But the only shoulder-fired weapon firing that is the Chinese LG-5, which is twice the weight target for PGS and nowhere near as compact as requested.  So, meeting this requirement is likely going to require another new type of ammo. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

9-Nov

This is exciting news. 

I've been hoping for something like this for awhile. 

Off the shelf:

Milkor 40mm w/ Multi Ray 800 FCU = 16.14lbs

24x 40x51 MV = 15.84lbs

Total = 31.98lbs

In terms of achieving the target weight of 14.5lbs, thats doable.

Rippel XRLG40 = 11Lbs

w/ Multi Ray 800= 12.54lbs 

Reducing capacity to 5rds could further reduce weight, although would complicate firing 3rd bursts. More likely, a Finite Element Analysis re-design of the launcher would find extra weight savings. 

In terms of the velocity requirement, that seems improbable. 40x51 is already on the upper end of tolerable recoil.

Per Emeric:

"A 250 g grenade launched at 100 m/s will need 8° of elevation to reach 258 m in 2.78 s, with a falling angle of 8.5°."

  • Edited 09 November 2020 12:42  by  gatnerd
taschoene

From: taschoene

9-Nov

gatnerd said:

0mm w/ Multi Ray 800 FCU = 16.14lbs 24x 40x51 MV = 15.84lbs Total = 31.98lbs Per Emeric from a previous discussion: "A 250 g grenade launched at 100 m/s will need 8° of elevation to reach 258 m in 2.78 s, with a falling angle of 8.5°."

This solution doesn't satisfy at the time-of-flight requirement in the RFI.  To get to 500 meters in less than 3 seconds, you'll need an MV of at least 200 m/s, and possibly more.  That's not happening with a 40mm grenade in a package that fits the desired size and weight limits.  This demands a new ammunition nature to work, I believe, probably more like 30mm.

  • Edited 09 November 2020 13:14  by  taschoene
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

9-Nov

I expect they'll likely soften that time of flight requirement.

The 25mm XM25 was 210ms velocity, and even with the lighter grenade and nice semi auto design, recoil looked brisk in videos I saw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-7L0Frj6vQ

Meanwhile, current 40x46 already has pretty marginal lethality, so it's hard to see them going to a much lighter grenade.

  • Edited 09 November 2020 14:53  by  gatnerd
EmericD

From: EmericD

9-Nov

gatnerd said:

Meanwhile, current 40x46 already has pretty marginal lethality, so it's hard to see them going to a much lighter grenade.

The casualty radius of the 25 & 30 mm grenades studied during the "PAPOP" program were around 0.5 m against protected targets... absolutely not enough.

jxexqx

From: jxexqx

9-Nov

is this, finally going to be a use for Metalstorm technology? (I say this only semi-seriously . . .)

In reply toRe: msg 7
taschoene

From: taschoene

9-Nov

I'm trying to imagine alternative approaches that could be applied.  Maybe a 40mm GL-compatible course-corrected rocket for the counter-defilade round to get the necessary velocity without punishing recoil.  Other bits of the requirement are within the capability of a 40mm MGL with improved ammunition.

Red7272

From: Red7272

9-Nov

taschoene said:

I'm trying to imagine alternative approaches that could be applied.  Maybe a 40mm GL-compatible course-corrected rocket for the counter-defilade round to get the necessary velocity without punishing recoil.  Other bits of the requirement are within the capability of a 40mm MGL with improved ammunition.

Or maybe just a heavier 40 mm grenade with a bounding function? At longer ranges a quadcopter with a grenade might work as well without limiting it to being launched by a GL.

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