schnuersi said:

Furthermore the scenario of a base being attacked by insurgents is not really the scenario I am talking about. In such a sceanrio, a limited number of attackers, of questionable training with light equipment can of course be beaten by non infantry troops with PDWs.

The scenario I am talking about is a peer or near pear sceanrio. Well trained and well equiped opposition. Not a limited number of insurgents.

Concur.  You have a valid criticism of that scenario.  I suppose one would have to go back to WW2 history to look for such peer scenarios.

gatnerd said:

There was a recently a video of a Ukrainian losing a trench gunfight to a Russian using FA, who hosed him when they came around the corner.

I don't doubt that the "bullet hose" would work in certain circumstances, and said so previously:  https://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages?msg=7776.940

I just question its usefulness and practicality as a standard operating procedure for engaging enemy combatants, considering the minimal ammo load likely for a PDW.  

Level 4 body armor is extremely rare on both sides of the front . Ukraine mobilised well over 1million men those 100k  level 4 wests if they ever made it cover less than 10% of those needs.

Meele like this is , outcome can be down to luck ,Ukrainian ran straight onto the muzzle 

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schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: I see no sign of the US and other countries seeking to replace 9mm.

True but this can change quickly. We also did not see the US adopting a cartidge even more powerfull than 7,62x51 not so long ago.

Actually, there were signs it was heading that direction.  When the US Army began looking for a 7.62x51 interim battle rifle in early 2017, some people thought body armor might be an issue.

     http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?13930-US-Army-Considers-Adopting-an-Interim-Battle-Rifle-in-7-62NATO-eventually-adopt-6-5&p=156110&viewfull=1#post156110

When it later became apparent that 7.62x51 could not defeat Level IV armor at range, it was clear that a more powerful cartridge would be needed.  There have been no such signs with 9x19.

schnuersi said:

Just as a realistic example: if Germany would deliver a significant quantity of MP7 to UA and the experience there is good and the Ukrainians love them. This would certainly have an impact and several NATO members would reevaluate their position on this matter.

Of course it also could go the other way round and Germany rethinking its use of the SCHV PDW.

Since it has not yet happened, I would call that a hypothetical example, rather than realistic.

And yes, it could easily go the other way and end up causing the demise of the PDW concept.

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

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If this is the incident you were discussing in Msg 997, I have to object.  It's impossible to tell what -- if any -- body armor he was wearing, or precisely where he was hit.

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: It looks to me like the man at the far right has rifle mags in his chest rig.

Could be MP7 mags. The chest rig is a non standard piece of kit. He propably bought it himself. Unlikely that there are MP7 optimised mag pouches easily available given their scarcity. So chances are he uses a chest rig with standard mag pouches and modified it to carry his MP7 ammo around.

Concur.  I originally thought the mags looked too wide to be MP7 mags.  He also did not appear to have an MP7.

However, after looking a bit more carefully, I agree that they are MP7 mags.  And in this photo the MP7 is visible.

Except some times you can't run away. One of the uses for the original PDW, the M1 carbine, was mortar troops. A mortar is way more effective than any PDW round; but you can't use it when the opposition pops up 30 meters away.

Also, peer doesn't always mean a full combined arms assault. A squad or platoon of infantry attacking a pulled over supply convoy, engineers working on infrastructure in a "safe" area, are all examples of the kind of situations where you would have to use a PDW as more than a noisemaker.

It's why I lean towards usually an M4 type weapon, but a good compact 5.7 could be used also.

LoL... That sounds like the army alright.

You know what always increases the probability of winning a gun fight regardless of hit probability?

More rounds in the same size and weight of magazine!

Having pistol rounds without stupid trajectories can also help too...

This is the flaw in Stan constantly talking about how the US army isn't looking to change calibers therefore every solution isn't viable.

The army is wrong.

We can plainly see this.

They're doubling down on wrong in an effort to avoid doing the right thing.

That makes holding the US army or other first world military procurement choices as some sort of indictment of the other options is farcical.

9x19 is obsolete, the mhs EPR bullets developed for MHS would be even more fearsome in 30 super carry or a new round developed similar to it.

Throw in shellshock cases and some of the other things we can do now that we definitely couldn't do when 9x19 was conceived and it's plain to see that you could frustratingly easily give people a much better option. 

Hell it could even be lighter, smaller, potentially cheaper, and actually reduce the amount of weight any given soldier had to dedicate to their weapon of last resort!

When I load my Glock 19 or 26 mags with liberty civil defense i can pretty literally carry 3 loaded spare mags for the weight of one loaded spare of federal HST 124 grain.

Shellshock 30 super carry would be similar in that regard.

There's also the actual shooter performance aspect of a round like super carry. Every person I've let fire my g19 and then handed them my super carry shield plus subcompact right after can push good hits from a significantly further distance with less time between shots by non trivial amounts.

Like, it's not even close...

This isn't me advocating for super carry adoption just to be clear.

This is me trying to hammer it into skulls that 9x19 is thoroughly obsolete and super carry proves it!

Stan would always complain when I talked about 7.92 vbr or 7 penna that we can't get these to test etc, but now we have super carry which very much shows that you can do everything 9x19 does and more now with far less bullet and gun.

There's no more well that's nice but these supposed benefits only exist on paper dodge anymore. 

stancrist said:

Actually, there were signs it was heading that direction. When the US Army began looking for a 7.62x51 interim battle rifle in early 2017, some people thought body armor might be an issue.

Well even if we count the pandemic years fully that would be ~6 years. Which is really a very short amount of time for this.
Concidering 2023 has just started and we had a pandemic we talk about less then five years. For a very large governmental agency. That is like me and you decinding after we slept over the topic one night.
So it really happened fast and allmost came out of no where for lots of people. Especially since it has been an allmost 180° turn.
So it would be possible for the same agency to change its opinion on 9x19 within 5 years.

stancrist said:

Since it has not yet happened, I would call that a hypothetical example, rather than realistic.

Realistic in the regard that it really could happen. Concidering allmost each and every piece of kit introduced since the end of the Cold War is delivered to UA for combat evaluation... I mean to be used to defend their home.
Hypothetical in so far as it not has happened yet. But lets wait a little and see if the Ukrainians run out of Soviet caliber small arms ammo.

stancrist said:

However, after looking a bit more carefully, I agree that they are MP7 mags.

Looks like he stuffed two mags into each pouch.