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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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PDW again   Small Arms <20mm

Started 20/12/20 by DavidPawley; 114033 views.
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

20-Apr

manimal87 said:

Just out of interest..... Is the 8.6 blackout a pistol (smg) or rifle caliber?

Rifle

stancrist

From: stancrist

20-Apr

schnuersi said:

And what advantage would such a short barreled rifle offer over a PDW with similar barrel length but an even more compact design?

The main advantage of an SBR for the medic (and certain other individuals) is commonality of ammunition and magazines with the riflemen in the unit.

For example:

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

20-Apr

So you should probably ask the French this not me as almost half the 416's they're acquiring are in this bbl length range.

That said, I'm working on a folding stock ACR brace (basically your standard ACR 7 position stock but with the butt pad replaced by a brace)  equipped 11.5" barrel "backpack/truck gun" which will have either a 1-4 lpvo or a red dot and magnifier combo on top.

Firing pretty standard 68 grain bthp ammo this should push my rounds well enough to induce projectile fragmentation out to 275 meters or more. (300 meters with a 12" barrel) 

This essentially means that I can push effective fire out to basically the max range of your typical akm. (which isn't going to fragment if it hits me but mine will fragment if it hits him)

Mind you too, that with a fragmentation range of 275 meters I'm actually capable of pushing effective fire out to 75 meters past the range where the overwhelming majority of actual hits from small arms occur.

The round I'm using is nowhere near as good as say m855a1 or mk318 mod 1 to boot and I still outrange an mp7 or p90 by a comfortable distance while being able to hit harder at those ranges than they can at the muzzle.

That's a pretty steep gain for not a whole bunch more anything over an mp7 or p90 (in reality I'm looking at a gun that's about half the cost that fires ammunition a quarter or less of the cost of "good" p90 or mp7 ammunition)

Realistically that's a pretty steep price and performance delta.

Will it be less convenient? Sure but I can live with this.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

20-Apr

stancrist said:

The main advantage of an SBR for the medic (and certain other individuals) is commonality of ammunition and magazines with the riflemen in the unit.

That only applies if the medic is assigned to an infantry unit.
It also is not really relevant since a medic is not armed to actively participate in a firefight.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

20-Apr

roguetechie said:

Realistically that's a pretty steep price and performance delta.

The price for a private purchased gun and ammo is no benchmark for governmental procurement.

roguetechie said:

Will it be less convenient? Sure but I can live with this.

The fun part is with such short barrels military issue 5,56 looses so much performance its in PDW territory. The same can be achieved with a smaller and lighter cartidge and a smaler gun.
The 7,5 FK delivers comparable performance from a 6" barrel. The 95 grains bullet retains ~700 J at 100 m. With a 10" barrel the performance certainly would be even better. At the same time the cartidge is shorter than a 5,56x45 and can be used in magazine in grip configurations. A MP7 or MP9 like weapon in this caliber makes SBRs and carbines redundant and it makes an effective handgun round should this be desired.
IMHO its the best current solution to this problem.
Its not easily and cheaply available for personal use though. I hope this will get better in the future.

stancrist

From: stancrist

20-Apr

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: The main advantage of an SBR for the medic (and certain other individuals) is commonality of ammunition and magazines with the riflemen in the unit.

That only applies if the medic is assigned to an infantry unit. It also is not really relevant since a medic is not armed to actively participate in a firefight.

Actually, what is not really relevant is if the medic is not armed to actively participate in a fight.

Also, the advantage of mag/ammo commonality applies not solely to medics, as I noted above.

For example:

graylion

From: graylion

20-Apr

Talking about the 7.5 FK. That is a lot of cartridge and needs a bigger gun. Not sure that that is the way ...

stancrist

From: stancrist

20-Apr

I agree.  The 7.5x27 FK is a much fatter cartridge than 4.6x30 HK and 5.7x28 FN, which would substantially reduce magazine capacity relative to the smaller rounds.

Also, the 7.5 FK is considerably heavier, with bullets which weigh three times as much.  I don't see a logical reason for advocating 7.5 FK as a military PDW cartridge.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

21-Apr

stancrist said:

which would substantially reduce magazine capacity relative to the smaller rounds.

The handguns in 7,5 FK have a magazine capacity of 15 rounds. Which is what a typical 9x19 service pistol has. So it can be safely assumed the capacity of a larger magazin is also comparable. Which would mean a 30 rds magazine is of reasonable size.

stancrist said:

Also, the 7.5 FK is considerably heavier, with bullets which weigh three times as much. I don't see a logical reason for advocating 7.5 FK as a military PDW cartridge.

IMHO the 7,5 FK adresses the criticism or potential shortcomings of the 5,7 and 4,6 PDW cartidges. Lack of power and low mass projectiles. The 7,5 FK indeed is more powerfull. Which means its in the performance range of 5,56x45 from SBRs. This also offers potential for improveing in armor piercing performance. While the large and heavy ball type bullet has significant stopping power.
Yes the cartidge is heavier than the the smaller two. But there is a price to pay. Its either performance or weight.
I have no idea how the 7,5 FK would perform in a full auto weapon. I guess its less controllable than 4,6 or 5,7. More like 9x19.

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