I was wondering what the typical tank to tank engagement range is... 

Let's say it's 1.5kilometers,  how capable is the gun accuracy versus that distant tank target. 

I know the computers help accuracy,  but assuming flawless shooting conditions,  would the guns dispersion be on par with a good sniper rifle? 

And are the HEAT/HESH any better or worse than APFSDS

smg762 said:

I know the computers help accuracy,  but assuming flawless shooting conditions,  would the guns dispersion be on par with a good sniper rifle? 

Long ago there was a video doing the rounds of a moving US tank putting 10 out of 10 APFSDS into a 30 cm target at 2000 metres.  No idea if it was accurate or a propaganda video by a manufacturer. At a high enough velocity fin stabilisation is as reliable as spin so there is no reason for them to not be very accurate. 

In GW1 a Challenger 1 scored a kill at 5110 meters.  So the accuracy is pretty good.


Engagement ranges is more limited by the terrain type.  Tanks, as big as they are, have a relatively low silhouette and even slightly rolling terrain can mask them effectively.

In 2008, Jane's Armor and Artillery Upgrades published the following for the RUAG 120 mm Compact Tank Gun, firing APFSDS at 1150 m:  

0.14 mils horizontal standard deviation

0.21 mils vertical standard deviation

This is from only 10 shots. But it should give a raw figure. 

HEAT and particularly HESH have a much longer time of flight, reducing hit probability.   

Right.  I read that the Swedish SLAP in their 762 DMRs had an average of 33% worse accuracy than standard ammo.  

 And that was recent too,  So it suggests bugs still haven't been ironed out.  Although those were 5mm bullets not darts

Also have any tanks used APDS with non-flechette projectiles?  We're they accurate..? 

smg762 said...

 And that was recent too,  So it suggests bugs still haven't been ironed out.  Although those were 5mm bullets not darts

Tolerances and aerodynamics don’t scale the same way caliber does, so I wouldn’t read too much into how a small-arms projectile behaves relative to a tank gun.

smg762 said...

Also have any tanks used APDS with non-flechette projectiles?  We're they accurate..? 

Usually fin-stabilised projectiles are defined APFSDS, so APDS usually describes the spin-stabilised version. Chieftain used it and was good for 1500m, so adequately so in that case. The early APDS used on the 6 and 17pdr guns had accuracy issues beyond a few hundred metres so it’s not a universal thing.

Also I read that the ACR rifles used puller Sabots,  with someone opining that a cup or spindle sabot would have been more accurate.  

Historically virtually no one has achieved accuracy with regular projectiles- only with flechettes (in tanks). 

Logically then it would seem a small arm attempt should use flechettes. 

I am afraid, the opposite is true.

The U.S. 5.8 mm XM645 flechettes (BRL Report 1810 of 1975) had a standard deviation of about 1 mil, which is roughly 10 times the dispersion of an ordinary spin stabilized small arms bullet (0.1 mils standard deviation). Maybe, more modern designs have reduced this to 5 times the dispersion.     

No I meant that the only times sabots have achieved great accuracy is with flechettes (in tank)

Sabots With bullets have never had. Good accuracy. 

Therefore perhaps the only hope for small arms sabots... is flechettes 

The U.S. xm flechettes were obviously very old.  I still maintain that emulating the spindle sabot of a tank is the solution.  It would mean a long round.  You wouldn't want to match the l/d ratio of current U.S. tank flechettes.... they are comically long.  Other countries use far shorter penetrators

JPeelen said:

XM645 flechettes

Most small-arms flechettes i have seen have stamped fins made on machines similar to ones making nails with similar precision,one wonders to what standard both the smoothbore barrel and the sabot was made to and its no suprise they are less accurate than traditional bullets.