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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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The Bullpup is Dead   Small Arms <20mm

Started 5-Sep by QuintusO; 2013 views.
QuintusO

From: QuintusO

5-Sep

Sounds like the last major user of the bullpup (bongs don't count) has ditched it: https://www.israelhayom.co.il/military-life/world-news-military-life/article/4407467

DavidPawley

From: DavidPawley

6-Sep

Inb4 “but the aussies”.

The EF88 is an interim solution to identified issues with the F88A2 and F88A2/M203PI. New build rifles have replaced old, badly worn rifles to extend the LoT with some QoL improvements.

The EF88 will be replaced under  LAND 159 Tranche 2. The replacement will very likely be NGSW. If not, it will almost certainly be SIG.

”The Lethality System Project (LAND 159) will equip the ADF with next-generation weapon systems, surveillance and target acquisitions ancillaries, ammunitions, facilities and training and support systems. The Lethality System will ensure ADF ground combatants maintain a capability advantage over potential adversaries to beyond 2030, and will be delivered in three Tranches (Table 1) summarised as follows:

Tranche 1 includes the Sniper System and the Close Combat System (comprising fighting knife, pistols, shotgun and the assault breaching system) and is due for Government consideration early 2022;

Tranche 2 includes the Close Combatant Assault Rifle, Machine Guns, Direct Fire Support Weapons and Grenades and is due for Government consideration in FY2024/25; and,

Tranche 3 includes enhanced munitions and emergent weapon systems and is due for Government consideration in FY2026/27.”

https://www1.defence.gov.au/project/lethality-system-tranche-1-sniper-system-and-close-combat-system

stancrist

From: stancrist

6-Sep

DavidPawley said:

The EF88 will be replaced under  LAND 159 Tranche 2. The replacement will very likely be NGSW. If not, it will almost certainly be SIG.

Why SIG?  Why not LMT, like New Zealand?

DavidPawley said:

”The Lethality System will ensure ADF ground combatants maintain a capability advantage over potential adversaries to beyond 2030, and will be delivered in three Tranches (Table 1) summarised as follows:

Tranche 1 includes the Sniper System and the Close Combat System (comprising fighting knife..."

Back to the Future?

  • Edited 06 September 2021 12:17  by  stancrist
Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

6-Sep

You do realize this means everyone is going to change their minds in a decade, and it's going to be "Bullpups Forever"?

Now impatiently awaiting the announcement of the ATI "Tavori Sporter"!

DavidPawley

From: DavidPawley

6-Sep

Because SIG has been signing agreements with multiple suppliers in Australia positioning themselves for a tender.

NIOA is the prime contractor for LAND 159 and will incorporate the best components in each category into the final system contract; domestic manufacturing is likely to be a requirement for the AR and MG weapon systems. LMT doesn't have the AU presence to do that, SIG is already setting it up.  

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

6-Sep

Which is a shame because sig is far from the best, instead depending on being the most aggressive.

Being fair to sit though, I'd take them any day of the week over FN which has become the Boeing of the small arms world. Too big to fail, and habitually fails to ensure revenue.

Unfortunately we (the west) have put ourselves in a situation that encourages extremely maladaptive business practices in order to ensure company survival even though it results in absolutely terrible products.

If this all sounds distressingly familiar from some other country in the late 80's that finally drove itself into collapse through similar mismanagement ...

There's a reason why all this is so hauntingly familiar yet different and it ain't a good one.

What's worse is we see countries like Hungary turkey china and others actively using us as a springboard and the prevailing opinions (motivated by misplaced exceptionalism and complacency) is that we are somehow guaranteed to remain the leaders no matter what as reality rushes straight at our face like the waters under the golden gate bridge do for a man who swan dove from midspan

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

6-Sep

Highly unlikely. Bullpup derangement syndrome was really a byproduct of the Cold War. It can also be caused by lead in the water.

I expect the newly independent nation of Florida to adopt the Kel-Tec RDB posthaste, therefore.

  • Edited 06 September 2021 22:16  by  QuintusO
stancrist

From: stancrist

7-Sep

Okay, that all sounds logical, thanks.  But, Textron is the presumptive winner of NGSW.  If the Aussies decide not to adopt NGSW, I can't see them switching to the 6.8 SIG hybrid ammo.  Would they stick with 5.56 and 7.62 NATO?  Do you know what caliber the Tranche 1 sniper rifle?

VPMudde

From: VPMudde

7-Sep

Perhaps we should throw our efforts behind aft-feeding CT carbines. You get an extra bit of barrel length, to please the bullpup people, and you can keep your traditional layout (externally at least), to please the phillistines that prefer those.

But joking aside, whatever happened aft-feeding CT? It was in some NDIA slideshows some years ago, and then just disappeared. Too complex to make into a sturdy and reliable gun, I presume?

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