Military Guns and Ammunition
Hosted by gatnerd
This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.
- 3420
MEMBERS - 197092
MESSAGES - 9
POSTS TODAY
Discussions
The Bullpup is Dead Small Arms <20mm
From: stancrist
9-May
RovingPedant said:Given that "behind" can also mean "on the other side of" and "in front" can mean "in the front of" Isn't this something that can be considered down to the imprecise nature of languages and and translations.
No. The translation was not imprecise, nor is the nature of language. The problem is that many users of language are often imprecise.
The description of the obstruction as being "behind" the gas port was confusing because it is inaccurate, not because of the translation.
It would be like saying that the muzzle is well behind the gas port, when in actuality the muzzle is some distance in front of the gas port.
And I question the idea that "in front" can mean the same thing as "in the front of". The two phrases have distinctly different meanings.
Example: There are twelve soldiers standing in the front of this formation, and one General officer standing in front of the formation.
From: RovingPedant
9-May
stancrist said...
No. The translation was not imprecise, nor is the nature of language. The problem is that many users of language are often imprecise.
The description of the obstruction as being "behind" the gas port was confusing because it is inaccurate, not because of the translation.
It would be like saying that the muzzle is well behind the gas port, when in actuality the muzzle is some distance in front of the gas port.
Frames of references. The muzzle is on the far side of the gas port from the chamber. If the translation was "beyond" rather than "behind" I doubt there'd be this problem.
Still, I don't think it matters this much, and this sort of hair-splitting ought to be my business.
More on the subject, I thought the MSBS Grot would be a good platform to compare conventional and bullpup rifles, being different versions of the same thing, but it seems that the conventional version has had more traction and been refined more than the bullpup, which sort of spoils it. I suspect that some of the criticisms in the comparison remain valid:
From: mpopenker
10-May
There's a lot of smoke going of of the ejection port of the bullpup and straight to the face of shooter, and that's not even suppressed
also, switching the shoulder during the engagement would definitely feed some brass into the same face. Not nice.
From: gatnerd
10-May
The VHS-2 (sold as the cringely named 'Hellion' in the US) brings up the promise and the peril of the bullpup.
Deals and other cool finds https://linktr.ee/alabama_arsenal"This video is for educational and entertainment purposes only. All guns displayed off the range...
We take the Springfield Hellion (Croatian VHS) to the range, test its accuracy, go over its features, and what I think of it overall 
Killdozer shirt: htt...
Pros:
-Short
-Superb accuracy (fired out to 1025yd in 1st video, 0.5-2moa depending on ammo in 2nd vide)
-Excellent piston design for use with a suppressor. Soft shooting both with and without suppressor, minimal gas to face, no change in reliability
-Good modularity, can swap ejection sides without parts, comfortable handguard, plenty of rail estate
-Excellent integral iron sights
-Decent for bullpup trigger (described as 'Glockish') and good enough for excellent accuracy.
Yet while the VHS has achieved these fine feats, its also held back by a number of negative ergonomic design choices:
-Lack of manual bolt hold open, irritating for range use and bad for malfunction clearance
-Mediocre magazine release
-Terrible bolt release
-High height over bore due to vertical G36 style charging handle
-Lack of flared magwell
-Pointless 'adjustable stock,' whose inclusion may be partially responsible for extra long LOP beyond normal bullpup.
These are all solvable issues, but its poor design choices like this that keep holding bullpups back.
From: schnuersi
10-May
gatnerd said:Pros: -Short -Superb accuracy (fired out to 1025yd in 1st video, 0.5-2moa depending on ammo in 2nd vide)
-Excellent piston design for use with a suppressor. Soft shooting both with and without suppressor, minimal gas to face, no change in reliability
-Good modularity, can swap ejection sides without parts, comfortable handguard, plenty of rail estate
-Excellent integral iron sights
-Decent for bullpup trigger (described as 'Glockish') and good enough for excellent accuracy.
Yet while the VHS has achieved these fine feats, its also held back by a number of negative ergonomic design choices: -Lack of manual bolt hold open, irritating for range use and bad for malfunction clearance
-Mediocre magazine release
-Terrible bolt release
-High height over bore due to vertical G36 style charging handle
-Lack of flared magwell
-Pointless 'adjustable stock,' whose inclusion may be partially responsible for extra long LOP beyond normal bullpup. These are all solvable issues, but its poor design choices like this that keep holding bullpups back.
Basically all of what you state is irrelevant for a governmental contract and military adoption.
The mag release for example is exactly where most governmental agencies worldwide would want it. On the back of the magazine to be operated with the thumb of the off hand. Just like in so many other military rifles.
The flared magwell might be an issue but this could be solved easily. The adjustable stock most likely is there because that is a feature usually required nowadays for governmental contracts.
I agree that the bolt release is stragely placed but since its possible to release with a pull on the charging handle this will most likely not be an issue for most governmental customers
Of the pros several things really aren't either.
The build in iron sights for example. These are often not required anymore. Quite the oposit. A lot of agencies nowadays want mountable ones of their choice.
The VHS really combines the features of several guns that made it into service in a bullpub package. Which is basically what they designed it for. A lot of its features have very strong G36 vibes. Its one of the few current day rifles that is not a cheap, simple and boring AR18 in an AR15 shell designs.
P.S.: Looked it up and besides being pretty cheap by German standards for a foreign 5.56 semi auto rifle it is delivered with two exchangable magwells as standard for civllians. So the magwell is easily exchangable. Flared or not, AR15 or G36 mags... you can make a wish.
- Edited 10 May 2023 5:23 by schnuersi
From: graylion
23-May
I keep thinking about the Desertec MDR. Now being able to switch from side eject to forward eject is not useful fr military purposes IMO - it's just another thing that can go wrong. make that fixed somehow? Keep the ability to switch RH to LH. although forward eject seems to alleviate it.
From: gatnerd
23-May
Yes, the forward eject system was a cause of added complexity, cost, decreased reliability margin, and some bit of weight (some claim as much as adding +0.5lb). DT now offers one without that option for all those reasons.
To clear up some confusion between forward and side eject chassis, we made this video to show everyone the similarities and differences between the two systems.
Was chatting with a multiple tour combat veteran online awhile back, he mentioned having to fire his M4 from his off side shoulder all of 3x in as many tours of duty. Sample size of 1 of course.
But as I mentioned before this is not an issue worth designing a rifle around; the much simpler nearly as good solution for off side shoulder firing is just a shell deflector. That is after all what conventional layout rifles use as well.
From: gatnerd
25-May
This is not yet ready for prime time, but does show an interesting PDW / Bullpup blend.
A bit shorter then the P90, but in full power 5.56.
Definitely needs, at a minimum, a P90 style integral foregrip.
These sort of bufferless AR15/AR18 bullpup things are still evolving, but I'm hopeful we might see something cool emerge in the next few years.
From: farmplinker2
26-May
12.5" barrel with reflex suppressor? If not too gassy, could be the "Ultimate PDW".