gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3358
    MEMBERS
  • 191144
    MESSAGES
  • 11
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

For Your Amusement   General Army topics

Started 15/9/21 by stancrist; 15319 views.
autogun

From: autogun

7-Aug

stancrist said:

Is there some reason to think that that either FN or CZ would have done anything other than adapt their latest designs to fire .276 Pedersen?

Weight requirements in the specifications?

mpopenker

From: mpopenker

7-Aug

autogun said:

This applied historically, with the Bren and Besa MGs, but the Germans didn't copy them. And I can't see the Germans abandoning 7.92 x 57 to use the .276 Pedersen.

I can bet that they would work in metric and only later convert their final results to imperial

and as far as I know Germans used Czech-made guns through the war. I can bet that Fallshirmjager would be happy to have lighter automatics n 1940-41, even in a non-standard caliber, especially if there' s a person with enough hindsight to recognize their worth.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

7-Aug

autogun said:

This applied historically, with the Bren and Besa MGs, but the Germans didn't copy them. And I can't see the Germans abandoning 7.92 x 57 to use the .276 Pedersen.

Agree.

The German army had experimented with intermediate cartidges in the inter war period. Some of the experimental cartidges have been comparable to the .276 Pedersen. This lead no where because there was no major intrest. This would not change because of the .276. In the logic of TFW the Germans allready would have had an intermediate cartidge by the because they would have been told to keep developing in this direction.

The weapons are not really intresting because Germany has a well rounded small arms intventory that fits its doctrine.

In reply toRe: msg 32
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

7-Aug

One thing that came to my mind in the last days contempaling this topic.

What would happen if a 6,5x52 Carcano would have been loaded with a 6,5 mm Arisaka M38 bullet. A 139gr spitzer. Would this hybrid be a usuable combination?

dobrodan

From: dobrodan

7-Aug


When Germany occupied Czechoslovakia in March 1939, the ZB-26 and ZB-30 were both incorporated into the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS under the designations MG26(t) and MG30(t), the suffix (t) denominating a captured weapon of Czech (“tschechisch”) origin. Altogether, the Germans acquired 31,204 ZB-26 and ZB-30 machine guns at that time, some sources indicate that the majority of the captured guns were the ZB-30 model. 1,500 of these guns were sold to the German ally Bulgaria, the others were issued to the various Wehrmacht branches and also the Polizei and Waffen-SS. Later, when Germany occupied Yugoslavia, they also captured some of the 15,500 ZB-30 machine guns that had been sent there, although it is unknown how many of these exactly were captured. Production of these weapons was continued under German occupation in Czechoslovakia and 10,430 were produced for the Wehrmacht and SS in 1939 and 1940. These examples cannot technically be considered “captured” but were actual German production. In 1941 production was switched over to the MG 34 and production of the MG30(t) / ZB-30 ceased.

https://festung.net/mg26t-and-mg30t-light-machine-gun/
 

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

7-Aug

That is not the army but the SS. Two different organisations with seperate logistics and procurement.

The SS was desperate for any weapons they could get their hands on because for most parts the army had priority. Foreign weapons also where used in garrison forces. But they were concidered inferiour to German equipment and replaced if possible.

It is one of the major mistakes made by the German leadership in the early stages of WW2 not to make full use of the industry of the occupied countries and switch the captured arms industry over to produce german equipment.

  • Edited 07 August 2022 16:48  by  schnuersi
stancrist

From: stancrist

7-Aug

autogun said:

Weight requirements in the specifications?

Is there a logical rationale to hypothesize the MoD setting weight requirements which would necessitate completely new designs, instead of just converting the existing designs to the new caliber as CZ did in developing what became the BREN gun? 

To me it seems far more likely that in your alternate timeline, CZ would develop a BREN gun exactly like they did in actual history, except it would be chambered in .276 Pedersen instead of .303 British.  There might be some reduction in weapon weight, but I wouldn't expect a hypothetical .276 BREN gun to weigh much less than the real .303 version.

FWIW, according to Ian the Czech ZH26 rifle actually was developed in .276 Pedersen:  https://youtu.be/e5dyjhcxGMI?t=235  Presumably it was just a caliber conversion, not a completely new rifle.

stancrist

From: stancrist

7-Aug

There were two loadings of 6.5 Carcano that had spitzer bullets.

124gr flat-base, steel-core AP:

139gr boat-tail, lead-core match:

munizioni - Tutti i modelli e tipi di palla della 6,5 Carcano

THE CARTRIDGE COLLECTOR (oldammo.com)

dobrodan

From: dobrodan

7-Aug

The article says this:

"the ZB-26 and ZB-30 were both incorporated into the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS under the designations MG26(t) and MG30(t)"

stancrist

From: stancrist

8-Aug

mpopenker said:

Anything you outsource to Belgians or Czechs will be automatically available to Germans by 1940, if not earlier. Including machinery, complete drawings etc. Especially Czech.

In this timeline, design and development of the .303 BREN gun actually was outsourced to the Czechs.  Is there any logical reason to think that a hypothetical change of caliber to .276 Pedersen in the TFW timeline would be likely to cause the Germans to adopt and field the .276 BREN gun?

TOP