gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3323
    MEMBERS
  • 188454
    MESSAGES
  • 0
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

20x102 mm cannons   Army Guns 20+mm

Started 22/10/21 by Guardsman26; 6106 views.
RovingPedant

From: RovingPedant

29/10/21

 

gatnerd said...

If it is indeed carrying a belt of 400x .50's that would be a fairly tremendous amount of ammo. Especially with the hopeful increase in accuracy / hit probability that the RWS would offer. 

I recall a presentation by one of the Nordic armies that claimed that their ammunition consumption dropped by an order of magnitude with the introduction of a RWS with stabilisation and fire control systems in place of pintel mounted weapons.

They didn’t mention it, but I suspect that not being the subject of return fire probably helps the gunner remain calm too.

In reply toRe: msg 41
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

29/10/21

I found a video of the CROWS II being loaded. It sure looks like a lot of .50 BMG - multiple ammo cans are opened up and the belts linked together, although we dont see exactly how many:

https://youtu.be/QaiV3AESg2Y?t=80

It looks like a sizeable ammo box so 400rds is plausible to me:

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

29/10/21

Have you seen the ARAS RWS concept?

It took a fairly admirable swing at automated reloading from under armor.

I think the short answer here is that you either start with a gun designed for that or you just hope you can attach a big enough ammo box.

stancrist

From: stancrist

29/10/21

roguetechie said:

Have you seen the ARAS RWS concept?

Maybe, but I don't recall for sure.  Many years ago I had literature on an Israeli system that was shown installed on a M113.  Might that be it?

roguetechie said:

I think the short answer here is that you either start with a gun designed for that or you just hope you can attach a big enough ammo box.

Sounds about right.  sunglasses

  • Edited 29 October 2021 14:35  by  stancrist
stancrist

From: stancrist

29/10/21

gatnerd said:

Wikipedia's artticle on the US version of kongsberg's RWS, the CROWS, lists the following:

Large ammunition boxes enable for sustained firing periods, carrying 96 rounds for the Mk 19, 400 rounds for the M2, 1,000 rounds for the M240B, and 1,600 rounds for the M249.

If it is indeed carrying a belt of 400x .50's that would be a fairly tremendous amount of ammo.

400 rounds confirmed by PEO Soldier:  https://youtu.be/Ts04TlbDONI?t=53

But I still wonder if it will be adequate in the near-peer warfare being planned for.

You can burn up 400 rounds pretty fast  RWS .50 Cal Gunnery Itteration - YouTube

gatnerd said:

A bigger issue I think is reloading the ATGM, as thats a) likely more important b) a single shot.

Reloading the missile is not as bad as reloading the gun.  It can be done by one man, from an open hatch.

See 1:51 in the video here:  Military Leak - Stryker armored with CROWS-J Javelin missile turret | Facebook

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

29/10/21

If you need more ATGMS, I think you get behind cover to reload, and hope your kills buddies don't lock on to you.

I suspect as APS gets more used, give them a burst of MG or light cannon fire to take out the APS will be a tactic.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

29/10/21

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2011/smallarms/WednesdaySI12414Testa.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjI4ZrvxvDzAhWbnWoFHdDzC68QFnoECCsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw26PzunSw_6Ut0HdasKpk_p

Nope, it's this thing....

You know what would really help?

If we somehow had an MG design lying around that was more conducive to automated ammo box swap under fire...

*Grin* not that I know of any candidates or anything m

stancrist

From: stancrist

30/10/21

An intriguing design, ARAS.  Thanks for the link.  10-year-old presentation.  Did they stop work on it?

However, I don't see the Army going for a new .50 cal machine gun just to get underarmor reloading.

The reason for fielding a RWS was to improve gunner protection when using existing guns like the M2.

  • Edited 30 October 2021 12:12  by  stancrist
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

30/10/21

Farmplinker said:

If you need more ATGMS, I think you get behind cover to reload, and hope your kills buddies don't lock on to you. I suspect as APS gets more used, give them a burst of MG or light cannon fire to take out the APS will be a tactic

I could see that potentially being a tactic. Although I fear that any enemy force with APS will likely be able to zap JLTV/Boxer/Stryker etc APC in the time it takes them to disable their APS with .50 fire. 

Potentially we could see a system where a 'decoy missile' is fired right before the Javelin. Some cheap compact missile/rocket (like a low end 40mm pike? RPG aimed by FCU?) is fired at the enemy vehicle to bait the APS into firing, at which point the Javelin is launched right after. 

Alternatively, we could see Missiles like Javelin switch from employing tandem HEAT warheads to using an Explosively Formed Penetrator (EFP) warhead design. This would allow the missile to explode at a distance outside the APS ability to destroy them.

Similar in concept to the CBU-97 Sensor Fuse Weapon and its EFP 'Skeets' that fire from 50-150' in the air above a tank. 

Does anyone know if theres been any development done on EFP Warheads for missiles? I remember the Iranians were zapping us with EFP's they supplied to the Iraqi shite militias in Iraq2, but otherwise I'm not terribly familiar with EFP's. 

  • Edited 30 October 2021 5:12  by  gatnerd
smg762

From: smg762

30/10/21

To briefly mention 50mm guns....am i right in thinking that the recent interest in 50mm for APCs is that 30mm cant defeat APCs? 

So would a typical bradley carry a bunch of 50mm APFSDS for use against other APCs....?

TOP