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50x228mm XM913 cartridge informations and questions   Ammunition 20-57mm

Started 2/11/21 by Augmentcore; 3000 views.
smg762

From: smg762

3/11/21

Oh. I always envisioned that an antimaterial rifle / MG with APFSDS could fill the role of the failed OICW grenades....with much less cost and weight.

i thought PELE was a variant of APFSDS with an unusual core layout...not some kind of HE loading

Msg 7945.13 deleted
Augmentcore

From: Augmentcore

3/11/21

Yes, but I think FAPDS might be a better choice. One problem with PELE is that it still belongs to full-caliber ammunition, which also means that the flight resistance will be relatively large. Once the distance between the target and the automatic cannon starts to be extended (for example, in a large city, buildings with a height of more than 400 feet are already can be seen everywhere), the energy storage of full-caliber ammunition will begin to decrease. Moreover, the principle of PELE almost completely relies on the retained energy of the projectile to kill, which is often lethal to projectiles with relatively small kinetic energy (such as .50 BMG) at a long distance. Therefore, it can be seen that in the whole world, the development of the PELE principle projectile only stays at .50 cal and has not been further popularized to any smaller caliber like .338, while FAPDS doesn't have such a problem: the projectile has enough storage capacity, the ballistic trajectory is much flatter, the kinetic energy of any single fragment is enough, and it can even deal with some armored targets like AFV or suicide bomber truck which can be seen everywhere in Syria or Iraq, which is impossible for PELE to achieve. So I think if I were you, I would pick FAPDS to replace HE but keep APFSDS in order to defeat IFV even MBT at a longer range if necessary.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

4/11/21

Ah yeah but that's not the niche I was thinking of for what I was talking about. I agree that there's better solutions for that application.

I also was thinking of ALP not Pele itself and ALP actually does utilize a small amount of explosive fill in order to help initiate the PELE style reaction.

The very specific niche I was talking about was for something that's somewhere between 13mm and say 19 mm projectile diameter specifically for smashing through jersey barriers, structural medium compression cinderblock walls or etc barricades ersatz armored technicals/vbied's and etc.

This is stuff we do enough of to be worth having a specific round to deal with it.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

4/11/21

Ah yeah no, PELE  rounds are these very interesting projectiles which constructed with a purposely impedance mismatched inner and outer material and very clever internal geometry so that even though they don't contain explosive fill they will hit deform and violently "detonate" usually after partially or fully penetrating an intermediate barrier.

ALP rounds take the Pele concept and add some explosive fill to help reliably initiate the reaction and make it more explosive.

This is actually why I wanted something like them for the application I did because technically they're not "explosive rounds" for most ROE and safe explosive materials handling accounting and etc regulations.

There's administrative, combat doctrine, political, optics, and other advantages to this which makes them very attractive for the use case I was suggesting them for.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

4/11/21

roguetechie said:

Ah yeah no, PELE  rounds are these very interesting projectiles which constructed with a purposely impedance mismatched inner and outer material and very clever internal geometry so that even though they don't contain explosive fill they will hit deform and violently "detonate" usually after partially or fully penetrating an intermediate barrier.

Do these PELE rounds have better penetration then an equivalent weight/energy tungsten core projectile?

And could they be scaled down to the more 6-8mm zone?

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

5/11/21

No definitely not to either.

Even a 12.7 PELE would probably be pretty difficult which is why I was thinking the 15-17mm range and the ALP explosive fill pumped versions for the specific application I was talking about.

From what I understand there's no reason why a 15-17mm ALP COULDN'T be done and you could definitely do it at 20mm.

As far as rifle caliber projectiles go I think we're kinda stuck with tungsten/DU.

Though on the rifle round side of things there's a guy on YouTube who's about to start selling "bushing style sabots" specifically to let you load 5.56 rounds in 7.62x39 cases to get around the Russian ammo ban.

In one of his videos he was getting 3218 fps from a 50 grain VMAX 5.56 projectile using iirc a 26 grain charge of h110 pistol powder out of a bog standard SKS without serious pressure signs from the primer/primer pocket.

What's even more interesting than the velocity in this case though was that he was halving 3 shot group size versus factory 124 grain ammo.

It definitely got my attention for sure.

https://youtu.be/eDHBcU9jECo 

Assuming that these are relatively cost effective, they're pretty interesting.

smg762

From: smg762

6/11/21

The drawback is that the sabot sides separate....sending the peices flying at angles which is bad when prone shooting

He even had to cover the chrony with wood in a different video....to protect it

Still, its puzzling why his petal sabots should be more accurate than normal sabots

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

6/11/21

Define normal sabots?

Because other than the old xcelerator sabots and the various revivals of them there hasn't been much saboted ammo commercially available and the cbjtech guy hasn't shared much in the way of results.

smg762

From: smg762

7/11/21

I meant their operation method.....xxellerator and CBJ stay in one peice.  This guy has petal sabots which may be a safety hazard

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