gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3334
    MEMBERS
  • 189417
    MESSAGES
  • 3
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

50x228mm XM913 cartridge informations and questions   Ammunition 20-57mm

Started 2/11/21 by Augmentcore; 2921 views.
smg762

From: smg762

3/11/21

In terms of performance against walls and typical cover, are autocannon better with HE or sabots?

Would an antimaterial rifle with tungsten flechette have much use against reaching insurgents behind cover?

Augmentcore

From: Augmentcore

3/11/21

The answer is: neither of them will work. Ordinary HE projectiles hardly have the function of prolonged detonation due to the limitation of the fuze. This also leads to the poor penetration efficiency of ordinary HE projectiles on thickened concrete walls that are common in modern urban warfare. Take the 30x165mm 3UOF8 HE as an example, given that the A-670M warhead detonating fuze equipped with it does not have the postponement function (PD-FUZE), it doesn't even have the ability to penetrate the 300mm thick reinforced concrete wall during the test on 2A72. Sounds ridiculous, right? But it does exist. The penetration force of APDS or APFSDS for buildings however is too strong. In many cases, modern urban warfare can even be accurate to the control for a certain toilet-sized room. In this case, the additional penetration power is very likely to cause huge damage to the comrades separated by the wall while killing the established target.So according to the discussion above, adopting APDS/APFSDS to defeat non-armor target in urban warfare is certainly not safe enough.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

3/11/21

This is exactly why I am kinda fond of Pele and ALP style rounds for this sort of thing where it more or less uses most of it's energy to dig through the first wall and then "detonates" into the space behind it.

The limited and controlled destructiveness goes where you want it without putting the huge danger spaces beyond your actual target (deeper into the building or into other buildings/spaces behind the area you're trying to hit)

With the sort of tricks we have at our disposal now there's some very interesting things you can do to put the destructive forces more or less exactly into the area you want it to go into without unnecessarily endangering stuff around/behind it.

Another interesting possible path that could be looked into is the explosive liners sometimes used in oil and gas shaped charges for oil exploration and extraction.

In these the actual shaped charge liner penetrates then explodes thereby controlling what it penetrates and limiting it's destructive scope.

smg762

From: smg762

3/11/21

Oh. I always envisioned that an antimaterial rifle / MG with APFSDS could fill the role of the failed OICW grenades....with much less cost and weight.

i thought PELE was a variant of APFSDS with an unusual core layout...not some kind of HE loading

Msg 7945.13 deleted
Augmentcore

From: Augmentcore

3/11/21

Yes, but I think FAPDS might be a better choice. One problem with PELE is that it still belongs to full-caliber ammunition, which also means that the flight resistance will be relatively large. Once the distance between the target and the automatic cannon starts to be extended (for example, in a large city, buildings with a height of more than 400 feet are already can be seen everywhere), the energy storage of full-caliber ammunition will begin to decrease. Moreover, the principle of PELE almost completely relies on the retained energy of the projectile to kill, which is often lethal to projectiles with relatively small kinetic energy (such as .50 BMG) at a long distance. Therefore, it can be seen that in the whole world, the development of the PELE principle projectile only stays at .50 cal and has not been further popularized to any smaller caliber like .338, while FAPDS doesn't have such a problem: the projectile has enough storage capacity, the ballistic trajectory is much flatter, the kinetic energy of any single fragment is enough, and it can even deal with some armored targets like AFV or suicide bomber truck which can be seen everywhere in Syria or Iraq, which is impossible for PELE to achieve. So I think if I were you, I would pick FAPDS to replace HE but keep APFSDS in order to defeat IFV even MBT at a longer range if necessary.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

4/11/21

Ah yeah but that's not the niche I was thinking of for what I was talking about. I agree that there's better solutions for that application.

I also was thinking of ALP not Pele itself and ALP actually does utilize a small amount of explosive fill in order to help initiate the PELE style reaction.

The very specific niche I was talking about was for something that's somewhere between 13mm and say 19 mm projectile diameter specifically for smashing through jersey barriers, structural medium compression cinderblock walls or etc barricades ersatz armored technicals/vbied's and etc.

This is stuff we do enough of to be worth having a specific round to deal with it.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

4/11/21

Ah yeah no, PELE  rounds are these very interesting projectiles which constructed with a purposely impedance mismatched inner and outer material and very clever internal geometry so that even though they don't contain explosive fill they will hit deform and violently "detonate" usually after partially or fully penetrating an intermediate barrier.

ALP rounds take the Pele concept and add some explosive fill to help reliably initiate the reaction and make it more explosive.

This is actually why I wanted something like them for the application I did because technically they're not "explosive rounds" for most ROE and safe explosive materials handling accounting and etc regulations.

There's administrative, combat doctrine, political, optics, and other advantages to this which makes them very attractive for the use case I was suggesting them for.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

4/11/21

roguetechie said:

Ah yeah no, PELE  rounds are these very interesting projectiles which constructed with a purposely impedance mismatched inner and outer material and very clever internal geometry so that even though they don't contain explosive fill they will hit deform and violently "detonate" usually after partially or fully penetrating an intermediate barrier.

Do these PELE rounds have better penetration then an equivalent weight/energy tungsten core projectile?

And could they be scaled down to the more 6-8mm zone?

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

5/11/21

No definitely not to either.

Even a 12.7 PELE would probably be pretty difficult which is why I was thinking the 15-17mm range and the ALP explosive fill pumped versions for the specific application I was talking about.

From what I understand there's no reason why a 15-17mm ALP COULDN'T be done and you could definitely do it at 20mm.

As far as rifle caliber projectiles go I think we're kinda stuck with tungsten/DU.

Though on the rifle round side of things there's a guy on YouTube who's about to start selling "bushing style sabots" specifically to let you load 5.56 rounds in 7.62x39 cases to get around the Russian ammo ban.

In one of his videos he was getting 3218 fps from a 50 grain VMAX 5.56 projectile using iirc a 26 grain charge of h110 pistol powder out of a bog standard SKS without serious pressure signs from the primer/primer pocket.

What's even more interesting than the velocity in this case though was that he was halving 3 shot group size versus factory 124 grain ammo.

It definitely got my attention for sure.

https://youtu.be/eDHBcU9jECo 

Assuming that these are relatively cost effective, they're pretty interesting.

TOP