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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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Sweden & Finland look to 7.62x51 as primary infantry rifle    Small Arms <20mm

Started 10/11/21 by gatnerd; 15388 views.
In reply toRe: msg 26
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27-Mar

Well it's official:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2023/03/27/finnish-and-swedish-defence-forces-to-acquire-a-joint-range-of-firearms-from-sako/

https://www.fmv.se/aktuellt--press/aktuella-handelser/fmv-tecknar-avtal-om-eldhandvapen/

https://www.forsvarsmakten.se/sv/aktuellt/2023/03/nya-eldhandvapen-pa-gang/

https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Sweden-goes-ahead-with-new-service-rifle/5-2633465/

11.5" 5.56 for PDW (ala france)

16" 7.62 for standard Infantry Rifle 

27" .338 bolty for Sniper use

The new Sako 5.56 and 7.62 carbine appears to have a monolithic upper receiver and an MLOK forend. They also appear to be select-fire. Both the carbine and 7.62x51mm rifle appear to be fitted with Ase Utra BoreLock Bird cage flash hiders which will allow the use of suppressors using the BoreLock fast-attach mounting system. It’s unknown what suppressors will be issued with the rifles.

The framework agreement will run for 10 years, with three seven-year option periods until 2053. Finland will acquire assault rifles and personal protective weapons for field tests, for a modest €0.7 million. On the other hand, Sweden’s contribution is considerable, with SEK 875 million ($82 million) worth of assault rifles and personal protective weapons. It’s a well-known fact that the Ak5 (Automatkarbin 5 / FN FNC) has reached its end of road, and while modernized recently the Ak4 (H&K G3) has been in service since the 1960s.

Swedish deployment of the new firearms systems will start in 2024 and 2025. Details on exactly what variants of the weapons the Finnish military will be procuring for further testing have not been released.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sako_M23

It appears that they are both Short Stroke Gas Piston ala 416, not DI. 

Another very nice improvement in the design is they have done away with the terrible US 180 degree FA selector, and gone with the much more ergonomic and fast to deploy 0-45-90 S-SA-FA selector.

  • Edited 27 March 2023 20:48  by  gatnerd
stancrist

From: stancrist

27-Mar

gatnerd said:

Another very nice improvement in the design is they have done away with the terrible US 180 degree FA selector...

Considering how rifles are typically used, I would hardly rate this as a "terrible" design feature:

Yet they did not ditch the one, truly terrible design feature of the M16:  That gawdawful T-handle.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

28-Mar

stancrist said:

Considering how rifles are typically used, I would hardly rate this as a "terrible" design feature

Well thats just the thing. It is terrible in that not only is it hard to get to FA, but also once in FA it's tricky to swipe back into SA or Safe. 

0-45-90 is just better ergonomics all around. 

(We've also seen FA used to pretty good effect in trench storming / clearing in Ukraine.)

T-handle is debatable. It's not that great to charge the rifle, but on the flipside its unobtrusive and helps keep the weapon action as sealed as possible. 

The design should be updated to ambidextrous though, as found on most modern commercial offerings.

stancrist

From: stancrist

28-Mar

gatnerd said:

Well thats just the thing. It is terrible in that not only is it hard to get to FA, but also once in FA it's tricky to swipe back into SA or Safe.  0-45-90 is just better ergonomics all around.

I agree that the 45-90 selector has better ergonomics than the 90-180 selector.

I just think the 90-180 selector is far from "terrible".  And so does the US Army.

gatnerd said:

We've also seen FA used to pretty good effect in trench storming / clearing in Ukraine.

Yup.  And most of that full-auto fire in trench fighting has been done with AKs, right?

How would you rate AK selector ergonomics compared to the AR's 90-180 selector?

                                     https://youtu.be/QtoW7RQnHzY?t=105

                  

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

28-Mar

stancrist said:

And so does the US Army.

The flipside being the Marines have found the 180 degree selector is too slow for the IAR.

https://defensereview.com/geissele-automatics-high-speed-selector-drop-in-spring-loaded-45-degree-instant-onoff-ambi-ambidextrous-full-auto-ar-selector-switch-and-super-select-fire-ssf-full-auto-trigger-kit-for-more-hits/

It’s pretty awesome. So, how did it come about? Well, about a year ago, the United States Marine Corps (USMC) gunner community approached Bill Geissele about a selector switch issue they were having on their guns (M4 Carbines). Basically, they’ve been getting a 40% hit rate in the semi-auto-fire mode on moving targets exposed for 2.2 seconds while moving at 10 mph at a distance of 50-150 yards, and it was taking too long to flip the happy switch over to full-auto, where they can get 60% hits, which is a whopping 50% improvement.

As for the AK selector, not great. I imagine rifles are basically kept safety off once the shooting starts, and are kept on either full auto or semi. Would be curious to know if thats the case.  

....

The AUG imo has the best selector - the 'gas pedal' trigger. Pull regular for semi auto, yank the trigger down hard to engage full auto. Releasing the trigger sets it back to semi.

stancrist

From: stancrist

28-Mar

gatnerd said:

The flipside being the Marines have found the 180 degree selector is too slow for the IAR.

AFAIK, the Marines have not adopted the Geissele selector for either the M4A1 or M27.  I doubt that it would be seen as cost effective.

Note that the time to go from safe to semi-auto to full-auto is virtually the same for both types:  https://youtu.be/YEJgPQzhMgE?t=112

And this Marine seems able to quickly switch from safe to SA to FA, then back to safe:  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xVkDNyhzI0E

In reply toRe: msg 32
autogun

From: autogun

28-Mar

I don't recall having seen any mention in this thread of the fact that a couple of decades ago Sweden adopted a 7.62 x 51  APDS round for their Psg 90 sniper rifles. This was developed by Winchester Olin who had already worked on the M948 SLAP   (there was also M959 SLAP-T). The specification of the Swedish round was different from the SLAP: it fired a 4.81 mm diameter tungsten alloy bullet using a plastic sabot: weight 3.4 g, MV 1,340 m/s. I think they don't use it any more, but I'm not sure.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

29-Mar

As a left-handed shooter, I find the AK safety/selector great!

stancrist

From: stancrist

29-Mar

I can see why.  It's almost as if the AK was designed for lefties.  sunglasses

AK47 Reloading drill left handed

Sam reloading an Ak platform rifle left handed

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

29-Mar

autogun said:

I don't recall having seen any mention in this thread of the fact that a couple of decades ago Sweden adopted a 7.62 x 51  APDS round for their Psg 90 sniper rifles. This was developed by Winchester Olin who had already worked on the M948 SLAP   (there was also M959 SLAP-T). The specification of the Swedish round was different from the SLAP: it fired a 4.81 mm diameter tungsten alloy bullet using a plastic sabot: weight 3.4 g, MV 1,340 m/s. I think they don't use it any more, but I'm not sure

That's an interesting question / idea.

From testing we've seen from Buffman, the SLAP rounds do bust Level IV quite handily (although not sure out to what distance.) 

I wonder how the cost of SLAP compares to normal Tungsten core like the DM151 France is using for its DMR's / ADVAP style exposed tungsten tip like the US is developing?

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