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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Reset / Change in Direction   General Military Discussion

Started 16-Nov by Guardsman26; 6972 views.
Guardsman26

From: Guardsman26

16-Nov

I have received confirmation from an industry source that GD-OTS / Lone Star / True Velocity are now out of the NGSW competition while Textron has voluntarily exited the program. This leaves SIG as the only remaining contender. Second, there now appears to be widespread acceptance within US Army / NGSW circles that the 6.8 mm ammunition standard is overpowered and reintroduces many of the disadvantages that 5.56x45 mm NATO standard sought to overcome. Consequently, the US Army is now looking at a compromise requirement with the ability to penetrate level IV body armour to 400-500 metres instead of 600 metres. 

RDECOM/ ARDEC had previously developed EPR projectiles in 6 mm, 6.35 mm and 6.5 mm. It seems that these will be re-evaluated in new case designs. The 6.5 mm EPR-style bullet had already been used by SOCOM for its T&E of 6.5x49 mm Creedmoor. So it is straightforward to establish this as a new NGSW baseline standard, adopting a necked-down version of SIG's hybrid 7.62 case.  Versus SIG's 6.8x51 mm standard, the new round will be lighter and with less recoil. No official confirmation of any of this yet, nor information on chamber pressures, muzzle velocity and muzzle energy. 

The SIG MCX Spear will also be updated. The revised ammunition can be fired with little more than a barrel change, but the weapon needs other modifications to improve handling and efficiency. I understand that the gas system and bolt carrier will be modified.

It is not yet clear whether a revised ammunition requirement will force a reset or simply be the next logical step in the program. Given these developments, the US Army is likely to be under pressure to make an announcement. 

poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

16-Nov

Thanks a lot

Do you think that finally CT is a dead end and not compatible with rifles in terms of minimum acceptable precision?

Gr1ff1th

From: Gr1ff1th

16-Nov

This sounds absolutely sensational in the actual sense of the word, I highly doubt any of this is true though, In the event that this is true, my personal interests would be in why Textron would voluntarily exit the program, that makes absolutely no sense at all to me.

  • Edited 16 November 2021 12:27  by  Gr1ff1th
stancrist

From: stancrist

16-Nov

Guardsman26 said:

RDECOM/ ARDEC had previously developed EPR projectiles in 6 mm, 6.35 mm and 6.5 mm. It seems that these will be re-evaluated in new case designs.

I certainly hope so. 

Guardsman26 said:

The 6.5 mm EPR-style bullet had already been used by SOCOM for its T&E of 6.5x49 mm Creedmoor. So it is straightforward to establish this as a new NGSW baseline standard, adopting a necked-down version of SIG's hybrid 7.62 case.  Versus SIG's 6.8x51 mm standard, the new round will be lighter...

Weight difference between a hybrid 6.5 CM vs 6.8 SIG would be negligible.

Cartridge bulk -- and therefore magazine capacity -- would be unchanged.

I see no logic in starting over with 6.5 CM, as it would solve none of the problems.

The only way to address the issues with 6.8mm ammo is with a smaller cartridge.

  • Edited 16 November 2021 13:24  by  stancrist
Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

16-Nov

So, my dream that we'll resurrect the 6mm Lee-Navy cartridge might come true?

stancrist

From: stancrist

16-Nov

It sounds like it just might.  sunglasses

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

16-Nov

Guardsman26 said:

Consequently, the US Army is now looking at a compromise requirement with the ability to penetrate level IV body armour to 400-500 metres instead of 600 metres. 

RDECOM/ ARDEC had previously developed EPR projectiles in 6 mm, 6.35 mm and 6.5 mm. It seems that these will be re-evaluated in new case designs. The 6.5 mm EPR-style bullet had already been used by SOCOM for its T&E of 6.5x49 mm Creedmoor. So it is straightforward to establish this as a new NGSW baseline standard, adopting a necked-down version of SIG's hybrid 7.62 case.  Versus SIG's 6.8x51 mm standard, the new round will be lighter and with less recoil.

If true, this would be massively retarded, as 6.5 Creedmoor is basically identical in weight and size to 6.8x51mm, while offering less room for growth to counter future advancements in body armor.

It would make far more sense just to load 6.8 NGSW to 6.5C pressure levels(~60kpsi), while retaining the ability to ramp back up to 80kpsi (6.8NGSW-A1) in the future should it be needed. 

Now if they wanted to actually go with a meaningfully lighter and more compact cartridge (ie like 6mm a non 7.62 parent case) then that would be something else. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

16-Nov

Perhaps the time of the 6mm Optimum is now?

Do you recall the case weight of your 6mm Optimum?

TV had a 55% case weight reduction from 7.62 Brass with their .308 polymer case. That could give us a good idea of what a polymer 6mm Optimum would be. 

Gr1ff1th

From: Gr1ff1th

16-Nov

Hmm if only a certain high performance 6mm concept existed, possibly even paired with TV cases for compatibly with existing actions, or in CT format for insane weight savings even with significant performance increases vs 5.56.

For bonus points we could even consider an 80KSPI 6MM Optimum firing 100gr 0.86i7/0.28G7 in a TV case, 7.62 NATO would have a VERY difficult time justifying it's existence in the face of that, let alone against the above mentioned in CT format

  • Edited 17 November 2021 0:04  by  Gr1ff1th
stancrist

From: stancrist

17-Nov

gatnerd said:

Do you recall the case weight of your 6mm Optimum?

I really don't know.  I never weighed it.  It's a .25 Remington case necked down, and the neck shortened to give a 48mm case length.

So, if you happen to know the weight of a .25 Remington (or .30 Remington) case, the 6 Optimum case would be a few grains lighter.

But, the photo was just to show a round of what I think is approximately the desired size, not to be a "plug" for the 6mm Optimum.

I'm not sure if a 0.42" diameter case could deliver the needed MV.  Perhaps it would require something more like the 6mm Unified?

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