Military Guns and Ammunition
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Ukraine weapons thread General Military Discussion
From: graylion
18-Aug
So the way to go would be refurbishment of Leo1s, possibly with a new turret too? How many does Germany have kicking around? And if the order for 100 PzH 2000 did actually happen and is approved, surely buying Leo1s should not be a problem anymore?
Would there be a point to giving them new turrets? And what, apart from the failures we already discussed are the issues with P2k? I you can share them of course. The problems that I see with infrastructure is retaking territory.
From: schnuersi
18-Aug
there are hundreds of Leo 1 around. Most are in the posession of the defense industry. Only some are left in government posession. Most oft the stocks in government posession have been destroyed by now. I don't know the exact numbers though.
I really don't see the point in a new turret. The original ones work fine and are at least ay available ay the hulls.
I can not say anything about if Leo 1 would be approved or not. I simply can not fathom the decision making process of the german government. My guess is nobody really can. So my guess is ay good as anyones.
My assesment is that the 100 PzH have been approved because most likely they will be delivered after the war. So they are concidered less problematic. Which means this is not precedent for delivering weapons to be used now.
The Gepards and the current in use PzH and all other weapons have been delivered into an active war so i really do not see the difference. Either delivering weapons is a problem or its not. But arguing around on specific weapon types makes no sense to me. There has been an almost legendary Video with the german secretary of defensed being questioned about this exact issue... its a failure of epic proportions, highly embarrasing and would be hillarious if it wasn't such a serious issue.
As mentioned befor there are no failures with the PzH2000. Just some problems with maintenance and repair. Most is propably allready adressed by now. Some issues came up because of the high intensity use. Again nothing special or really problematic. Some problems and inconveniences. In general the PzH work great and do what they are supposed to.
From: schnuersi
18-Aug
Lambrecht Sieben deutsche Panzer Haubitzen in der Ukraine
Her answers trough the entire questioning are bad. But when asked about the Gepards (18:30 -19:35) it really becomes embarrasing. Its all completly false and shows her utter lack of knowledge and understanding. The only thing that is missing is she saying: "pew pew pew". All this in a smug and arrogant way that is completly unprofessional and unworthy of her position and the place.
P.S.: I remebert it wrong. Thought it was a press conference. But its actually a Q and A session in the Bundestag and she is answering to members of the parliament who summoned her for questioning.
- Edited 18 August 2022 10:58 by schnuersi
From: graylion
18-Aug
The inanity of German policy is absolutely horrifying. If we seold them all the Leo1s they might have a chance. And that is important. What is happenign at the moment is a betrayal of everything we in the West supposedly stand for.
From: Mr. T (MrT4)
18-Aug
How long do you think getting sizable numbers of leopard 1 ready for combat would take? I imagine minimum 6 months to a year same for crew training. And Ukrainians would still have tanks that are probably worse than T72 clones they got from eastern Europe , most of which have somewhat modernized optronics at least a generation ahead of Leopard1, plus they know how to maintain those.
Weapons supplies are barely trickling in. A self induced recesion is here in most of the western economies and winter is around the corner Ukraine can only expect much less from Europe in the upcoming months. Old surplus depos are mostly emptied of the ex-soviet gear useful to Ukrainians ,( for example there is hardly any ammo for all their soviet era artillery, so they are now increasingly limited to much smaller numbers of NATO standard artillery.
Although mud season will slow the logistics in a month or two, i dont think i will matter much considering how little front lines are moving per day and mud season cuts both ways.
*title is a bit misleading but it gets the gist of it. You can tell that European $$ or lack there off are more or less directly tied to any Ukrainian success on the battlefield in absence of anything that looks like winning except the Euro$$ support to continue to drop.
For the first time, Ukraine’s western partners sent no new aid in July
By Ben Aris in Berlin August 18, 2022
The flow of new international support for Ukraine “dried up” completely in July, according to the Kiel Institute for the World Economy, which has been tracking donations. There were no new promises of any sort of aid from any of the large EU members like Germany, France or Italy, the institute said in its latest release on August 18.
“The newest update of the Ukraine Support Tracker (July 2 to August 3) shows that in July, Ukraine received only around €1.5bn in new pledges of support. In total, the tracker now records commitments of €84.2 billion,” said Christoph Trebesch, head of the team that compiles the Ukraine Support Tracker. “In July, donor countries initiated almost no new aid, but they did deliver some of the already committed support such as weapon systems.”
Germany, for example, has not announced any further military support, although it did send considerable military aid that was committed earlier.
This is the first month since the war started just over six months ago that Ukraine has received no new pledges of help, either military or financial.
- Edited 18 August 2022 19:13 by Mr. T (MrT4)
From: schnuersi
19-Aug
Mr. T (MrT4) said:How long do you think getting sizable numbers of leopard 1 ready for combat would take? I imagine minimum 6 months to a year same for crew training.
Its propably doable to get a batallion up to a brigade worth of Leo 1 ready within six month. If there is eough effort put into it. Crew training is less problematic. It can be done in parallel.
To what standard these Leo 1 would be upgraded is unclear. The baseline Leo 1A5, the last version the BW used has the same fire controll and optics as the Leopard 2 A4 did. Actually a little better. Its sort of a M60A3 and M1 situation. The Leo 1 A6 which had been developed but not introduced in service increased protection and rearmed the Leo 1 with a 120 mm L44 gun. All Leo 1 A5 can be rearmed this way. The vehicles had been prepared for this.
My guess is they would use new Optics and FCS as drop in OTS solution. Makes little sense to restart production of old equipment. Maybe the Ukrainians even mount ERA on them. There are several options really.
Mr. T (MrT4) said:A self induced recesion is here in most of the western economies and winter is around the corner Ukraine can only expect much less from Europe in the upcoming months
This was to be expected. The intrest in the war vanes. Other things now make the headlines. The situation on the frontline has become rather static.
But there really is no recession and certainly not self induces. The German economy is booming. There is more demand than production capacity. Especially the shortages caused by the global supply chain interuption by China is problematic. This is not a long term problem tough. The gas supply for the German industry is mostly secure now. This problem is solved. The big thing here in Germany currently is the drough and heat waves. But there is nothing that can be done. We will have to sit this one out. Autum will come and with it rain and cooler weather.
Mr. T (MrT4) said:For the first time, Ukraine’s western partners sent no new aid in July
This is misleading. For the first time no new help programs have been initiated. The ones allready running are just that. Still running. Once these are fullfilled and the need for more is clear and it can be assesed what is needed more will come.
A lot is currently happening at low key and quietly.
Germany for example is in the process to provide UA with Vulcano ammo of the PzH 2000. Didn't really make the news but this is really amazing. The stuff is brand new and has not yet been introduced in the German Army. This is scheduled for completion in 2025. The first batches now all go to UA.
From: Mr. T (MrT4)
19-Aug
If you are talking about upgrading Leo1 you are talking years , not months till delivery. 6months to a year is just getting the stuff from a scrap heap rebuilt to combat ready stage
255 rounds possibly years down the line. That is not about supporting Ukraine but really only about testing stuff in Ukraine.
Meanwhile scraping the bottom of the barrel with these Bulgarian arms purchased for 200mio Eur trough Romanian middle man.
https://defapt.ro/romarm-rachete-ruginite-belaruse-pentru-ucraina/
stuff that then blows up on you
From: schnuersi
19-Aug
The Leo 1 would be needed to be upraded to some degree anyways. Its not like they are standing around, fully equiped just needing a new paint job. The electronics and optics need to be replaced or better reinstalled anyways. It is very unlikely that legacy optics and electronics would be reproduced for this. They will just install the currently available equipment. Which means an upgrade.
Yes UA will get ~250 Vulcano shells... which means all that are exsiting. 250 direct hits at 70 km is an awefull lot. And indefinetly more than none at all. I have no idea what you expect. Stuff that doesn't exist can not be delivered. The Vulcano stells will be delivered this year or next. If more are sent if needed when they become available remains to be seen.
The same is true for other weapon systems and munitions. If its not there it can't be delivered. Stocks are empty. Its that simple. There is allmost nothing left. Restarting production or ramping it up is easier said than done and takes time. Concidering the current state of the war it seems UA now has time while Russia is running out of it. So the deliveries so far achieved their goal. Prevent the collapse of UA. Now serious mid and long term planing can begin.