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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.
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15-Nov
I am thinking we might see a resurgence of SPAAGs?
Ukraine has been using the German-made Gepard anti-aircraft gun to shoot down Russia's Shahed-136 drones.The Iranian-made Shahed loitering munitions have bee...
15-Nov
Complete air defense will need to be revamped, NATO is extremely limited in both SAM and AAA. On the other hand, you will probably see anti-drone capability added to every RWS and OWS that could be used.
As for Gepard for all the boasting about xyz claims we haven't seen one vid of Gepard shooting down anything.
15-Nov
graylion said:I am thinking we might see a resurgence of SPAAGs
Absolutely. Ukraine shows that even very cheap drones are a threat, and that its always possible to field more drones then it is to field guided missiles.
At the same time, the drones themselves are super slow, delicate, and fairly low altitude - ideal for being shot with autocannons or even bullets.
I think we may see 'Micro SPAAG' type systems, where vehicles Remote Weapons Stations are designed to be able to provide emergency anti drone work using their 7.62 and .50 MGs.
FN is working on a similar system, but as a dedicated containerized ground station:
https://fnherstal.com/en/news/nato-nntex-c-uas-032022/
Another system, PITBULL, looks to use some form of AI to improve targeting and tracking of drones:
https://www.unmannedsystemstechnology.com/2022/06/ai-powered-remote-control-weapons-station-unveiled/
Meanwhile as mentioned in the 30mm thread, the US is fielding 30x113mm proximity airburst on numerous platforms as an anti drone gun.
And Rheinmetalls 35mm AHEAD seems the very best option, and should be able to be mounted to various trucks.
The bigger issue is likely to be detecting these drones, and having enough systems in place to cover their various angles of approach.
This is why I think every vehicle with a RWS should have some emergency anti drone capability, rather then relying on just dedicated anti drone vehicles like the FlakPanzer.
15-Nov
An article on what we've all long realized, but still a very good article with interesting aspects.
Of particular note is the Delta App/System, allowing a sort of 'crowd sourced intel' gathering and distribution between the military, intel, and vetted civilian spotters behind enemy lines.
15-Nov
Mr. T (MrT4) said:As for Gepard for all the boasting about xyz claims we haven't seen one vid of Gepard shooting down anything
Theres actually precisely one video, although the majority of it is sound:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/yfmicx/during_the_night_a_german_donated_gepard_is/
15-Nov
Exactly one video if its shooting at something vs hitting anything that we can discern. It's quite amusing to watch folks thinking those bangs are rounds going off close to the target .Its just rounds self-destruct after distance X.
Those Geranium/Shahed drones are just about the simplest you can make and if they flew at night time they wouldn't even be shot at much .
SHORAD will need lots more stowed kills for dealing with the drones. Like this Chinese Pantsir with 6 full size SAMs on one side and 48 small anti-drone missiles on the other.
In longer term Laser is probably the best solution for defense against small drones.
I am not buying the Delta App , you have to know that lots of these thing need to be promoted for feel good propaganda usage for folks to think they are contribuiting. but for all practical intents and purposes 300+ satelites and dozen ISR platforms flying 24/7 near Ukrainian Air space collecting data is where its at.
15-Nov
Mr. T (MrT4) said:Exactly one video if its shooting at something vs hitting anything that we can discern. It's quite amusing to watch folks thinking those bangs are rounds going off close to the target .Its just rounds self-destruct after distance X.
Chances are high there never will be footage to satisfy you.
Gepard has an egagement range of up to 5 km. So unless there is someone holding his smart phone up to make a video of a drone passing above him while by chance a Gepard engages it and shoots it down all videos will look like the ones you dismissed. Noise and tracers in the sky.
The footage that shows RU helicopters being hit and shot down by SHORAD missiles has been taken by pure chance with a camera pointing in the right direction while the incident occured.
One one side there is the reminder to take footage with a grain of salt because of the lack of context and bigger picture. The flip side is that things happen without footage being shot.
Neither the PzH 2000 nor Gepard (or HIMARS for that matter) are systems that are good for video or PR. Its hard to impossible to capture the firing of the weapon and its effect with one camera in one continous video. The effect can of course be shown but there will be no direct, non cut link, to the use. So does that mean HIMARS, PzH 2000 or Gepard don't work? Same is true for most weapons really. Very rarely is the use and the effect captured in the same footage. This is nothing special. It is special when it is the case.
What do you think is more plausible that UA troops shot down drones with AKs, PKMs and the occational DShK after jumping out of their trucks or that a dedicated AA system shot them down. If you decide for the guys with small arms think about what this impiels: dedicated AA is not needed. Everybody can easily shoot drones down. What is it going to be?
BTW: it is nothing new or supprising that drones that have to operated in a contested or defended air space will get shot down en mass. At the very least the current generation of drones are not designed for this scenario. They are not cruise missiles which are desigend to penetrate trough denfended air space. They are much cheaper but lack capabilities in comparison.
Gepard has been designed to deal with manned attack aircraft and helicopters. Which are deploying countermeasured and perform evasive manouvers. In addition these targets are much tougher and faster than drones. Gepard might not be exactly state of the art anymore but its capabilities are certainly good enough to effectively engage slow, flimsy targets that do not evade.
Fun fact: back in the day, during my service time during the '90, Gepards during live fire excercises used to wreck the target drones and towed targets with direct hits on the first pass. Repeatable and reliable. These targets used to be pretty much exactly the size and shape of the Iraian drones. Only these targets have been conciderable faster (roughly twice the speed). I have no reason to believe that the Gepards can not do today what they did back then. As I have no reason to doubt the effectiveness of PzH 2000 and HIMARS.
16-Nov
So so video, but the rifle is interesting:
A Polish MSBS GROT rifle, with a 3.5X ACOG with piggy back dual illuminated RMR.
Mildly amusing to me is that this is a French volunteer, as France bans the use of Tritium such as found in the ACOG.
16-Nov
Recently debuted, similar to a system Nammo showed off.
I strongly suspect this was developed based on seeing the results from Ukraines Octocopters dropping drone anti tank grenades.
https://soldiersystems.net/2022/11/14/mww-22-blade-55/
For NATO forces, this is nice as it uses an existing weapon in inventory, rather then relying on a new munition or craft modified munition. And unlike a suicide drone, this is a reloadable weapon.
For the US, probably not. But for smaller states on a budget looking to further boost their defensive ability on a budget, I think its quite compelling.
16-Nov
Rheinmetall has purchased Spains Expal munitions company in order to boost its shell production in light of increased demand caused by the Ukraine war: