gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3372
    MEMBERS
  • 192631
    MESSAGES
  • 0
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

Ukraine weapons thread   General Military Discussion

Started 24/2/22 by gatnerd; 218256 views.
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

15-Nov

graylion said:

I am thinking we might see a resurgence of SPAAGs

Absolutely. Ukraine shows that even very cheap drones are a threat, and that its always possible to field more drones then it is to field guided missiles.

At the same time, the drones themselves are super slow, delicate, and fairly low altitude - ideal for being shot with autocannons or even bullets. 

I think we may see 'Micro SPAAG' type systems, where vehicles Remote Weapons Stations are designed to be able to provide emergency anti drone work using their 7.62 and .50 MGs. 

FN is working on a similar system, but as a dedicated containerized ground station:

https://fnherstal.com/en/news/nato-nntex-c-uas-032022/

Another system, PITBULL, looks to use some form of AI to improve targeting and tracking of drones:

https://www.unmannedsystemstechnology.com/2022/06/ai-powered-remote-control-weapons-station-unveiled/

Meanwhile as mentioned in the 30mm thread, the US is fielding 30x113mm proximity airburst on numerous platforms as an anti drone gun. 

And Rheinmetalls 35mm AHEAD seems the very best option, and should be able to be mounted to various trucks. 

The bigger issue is likely to be detecting these drones, and having enough systems in place to cover their various angles of approach. 

This is why I think every vehicle with a RWS should have some emergency anti drone capability, rather then relying on just dedicated anti drone vehicles like the FlakPanzer.

  • Edited 15 November 2022 11:55  by  gatnerd
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

15-Nov

An article on what we've all long realized, but still a very good article with interesting aspects.

https://archive.ph/B93cR

Of particular note is the Delta App/System, allowing a sort of 'crowd sourced intel' gathering and distribution between the military, intel, and vetted civilian spotters behind enemy lines. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

15-Nov

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

As for Gepard for all the boasting about xyz claims we haven't seen one vid of Gepard shooting down anything

Theres actually precisely one video, although the majority of it is sound:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/yfmicx/during_the_night_a_german_donated_gepard_is/

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

15-Nov

Exactly one video if its shooting at something vs hitting anything that we can discern. It's quite amusing to watch folks thinking those bangs are rounds going off close to the target .Its just rounds self-destruct after distance X.

Those Geranium/Shahed drones are just about the simplest you can make and if they flew at night time they wouldn't even be shot at much .

SHORAD will need lots more stowed kills for dealing with the drones. Like this Chinese Pantsir with 6 full size SAMs on one side and 48 small anti-drone missiles on the other. 

In longer term Laser is probably the best solution for defense against small drones.

I am not buying the Delta App , you have to know that lots of these thing need to be promoted for feel good propaganda usage for folks to think they are contribuiting. but for all practical intents and purposes 300+ satelites and dozen ISR platforms flying 24/7 near Ukrainian Air space collecting data is where its at.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

15-Nov

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

Exactly one video if its shooting at something vs hitting anything that we can discern. It's quite amusing to watch folks thinking those bangs are rounds going off close to the target .Its just rounds self-destruct after distance X.

Chances are high there never will be footage to satisfy you.
Gepard has an egagement range of up to 5 km. So unless there is someone holding his smart phone up to make a video of a drone passing above him while by chance a Gepard engages it and shoots it down all videos will look like the ones you dismissed. Noise and tracers in the sky.
The footage that shows RU helicopters being hit and shot down by SHORAD missiles has been taken by pure chance with a camera pointing in the right direction while the incident occured.
One one side there is the reminder to take footage with a grain of salt because of the lack of context and bigger picture. The flip side is that things happen without footage being shot.
Neither the PzH 2000 nor Gepard (or HIMARS for that matter) are systems that are good for video or PR. Its hard to impossible to capture the firing of the weapon and its effect with one camera in one continous video. The effect can of course be shown but there will be no direct, non cut link, to the use. So does that mean HIMARS, PzH 2000 or Gepard don't work? Same is true for most weapons really. Very rarely is the use and the effect captured in the same footage. This is nothing special. It is special when it is the case.
What do you think is more plausible that UA troops shot down drones with AKs, PKMs and the occational DShK after jumping out of their trucks or that a dedicated AA system shot them down. If you decide for the guys with small arms think about what this impiels: dedicated AA is not needed. Everybody can easily shoot drones down. What is it going to be?
BTW: it is nothing new or supprising that drones that have to operated in a contested or defended air space will get shot down en mass. At the very least the current generation of drones are not designed for this scenario. They are not cruise missiles which are desigend to penetrate trough denfended air space. They are much cheaper but lack capabilities in comparison.
Gepard has been designed to deal with manned attack aircraft and helicopters. Which are deploying countermeasured and perform evasive manouvers. In addition these targets are much tougher and faster than drones. Gepard might not be exactly state of the art anymore but its capabilities are certainly good enough to effectively engage slow, flimsy targets that do not evade.
Fun fact: back in the day, during my service time during the '90, Gepards during live fire excercises used to wreck the target drones and towed targets with direct hits on the first pass. Repeatable and reliable. These targets used to be pretty much exactly the size and shape of the Iraian drones. Only these targets have been conciderable faster (roughly twice the speed). I have no reason to believe that the Gepards can not do today what they did back then. As I have no reason to doubt the effectiveness of PzH 2000 and HIMARS.

  • Edited 15 November 2022 20:01  by  schnuersi
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

16-Nov

So so video, but the rifle is interesting:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/yvufh2/gopro_footage_from_a_french_volunteer_combatant/

A Polish MSBS GROT rifle, with a 3.5X ACOG with piggy back dual illuminated RMR.

Mildly amusing to me is that this is a French volunteer, as France bans the use of Tritium such as found in the ACOG. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

16-Nov

Recently debuted, similar to a system Nammo showed off.

I strongly suspect this was developed based on seeing the results from Ukraines Octocopters dropping drone anti tank grenades.

https://soldiersystems.net/2022/11/14/mww-22-blade-55/

For NATO forces, this is nice as it uses an existing weapon in inventory, rather then relying on a new munition or craft modified munition. And unlike a suicide drone, this is a reloadable weapon. 

For the US, probably not. But for smaller states on a budget looking to further boost their defensive ability on a budget, I think its quite compelling. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

16-Nov

Rheinmetall has purchased Spains Expal munitions company in order to boost its shell production in light of increased demand caused by the Ukraine war:

https://soldiersystems.net/2022/11/15/rheinmetall-takes-over-spains-expal-systems-s-a-move-brings-the-group-new-ammunition-production-capacity/

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

16-Nov

Sooner or later there would be a video of Gepard shooting something down  ,that is how things work these days . I am certain the system is effective , but as with all SPAAGs and AAAs short range and low level target  means it needs to be at the right spot at the right time to even have a chance of engaging , effective engagement range given the target height (how close to the SPAAG does a target at 100-200m enter aiming envelope , is not the same as your max effective range) when you are at the shooting range that is what you get , open terrain and targets with IR strobes and radar reflectors  in range.

There are simply too few Gepards around to defend lots of airspace 24/7  , and then there is where they are used ither at point defense airbases, radar stations, SAM sites or front line troop concentration's, further reducing the likely hood Shaheds just happen to fly over them. 

No one is shooting down any number of  Shaheds with AKs , that would be an absolute fluke ,lucky shot that can happen but is hardly the norm. But you have MSM reporting how they  successfully use apps to notfiy folks when shooting in the air is in order and AK47 anti air ambush that they shoot 95% of the drones down- total and absolute rubbish . Kinda like that math in PR releases, where they shot down 92 of 95 Shaheds but according to same press release targets in 10 regions and 18 cities were hit.

Most plausible is they do not shot down many drones and wast majority of Shaheds get through, not because the target is difficult but given the size of the Theatre and Ukraine's SAM ,SPAAG density  chances of  said systems being in the right spot at the right time are kinda low , and we have seen both in this war and previous wars drones often get practically on top of SAM systems before they are detected and  engaged , same systems would be shooting at jets or helos much sooner and at much longer ranges so at least in terms of detection it seems they are not the same as gunnery targets that have flares and radar reflectors to enhance the signature

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbVjHNQwpjM

Folks trying to make a video of SAM taking down a drone , note the SAM is practically aiming straight up probably at Orlan drone spotting for Artillery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9nf_EgCJus

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

16-Nov

All sorts of 'unmarked' bodyarmor supposedly issued to some of the newly mobilized Russian troops

Sanctions dodging imports?

Unmarked probably Chinese Armor

Unmarked reportedly Turkish ASDAG Tactical but no markings 

Iranian marked west and helmet , definetly not the camo for ukraine , might work for winter but stil............

 Rouin-3 produced by the Iranian company Milad Industrial & Manufacturing Company.

TOP