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Ukraine weapons thread   General Military Discussion

Started 24/2/22 by gatnerd; 211732 views.
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

29-Nov

The eternal Maxim:

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

29-Nov

"War, war never changes".

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

29-Nov

Farmplinker said:

"War, war never changes"

Speaking of, I came across this quote from "A Frozen Hell" on the Russo-Finnish war of 1939-40. Quite similar to today. 

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

30-Nov

Ever wondered how switchblade controls work given that wings need to rotate so are to thin to house any servos.

Smart and straight forward , carbon fiber 'springs'  push flaperons one way , and servos act from the fuselage  only pushing one way

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

30-Nov

Tidbit from way back machine , on justification for targeting the electrical grid. 

https://www.nato.int/kosovo/press/p990525b.htm

''Question (Norwegian News Agency): I am sorry Jamie but if you say that the Army has a lot of back-up generators, why are you depriving 70% of the country of not only electricity, but also water supply, if he has so much back-up electricity that he can use because you say you are only targeting military targets?

Jamie Shea : Yes, I'm afraid electricity also drives command and control systems. If President Milosevic really wants all of his population to have water and electricity all he has to do is accept NATO's five conditions and we will stop this campaign. But as long as he doesn't do so we will continue to attack those targets which provide the electricity for his armed forces. If that has civilian consequences, it's for him to deal with but that water, that electricity is turned back on for the people of Serbia. Unfortunately it has been turned off for good or at least for a long, long time for all of those 1.6 million Kosovar Albanians who have been driven from their homes and who have suffered, not inconvenience, but suffered in many cases permanent damage to their lives. Now that may not be a distinction that everybody likes but for me that distinction is fundamental.''

EmericD

From: EmericD

30-Nov

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

Tidbit from way back machine , on justification for targeting the electrical grid.

Or, I should have missed something... the Ukrainians fired missles at Moscow or St-Petersburg? Or the US is targeting power stations in Russia?

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

30-Nov

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

justification for targeting the electrical grid

The core difference is that in Iraq 1 and Kosovo, the electric grid was temporarily disrupted, as the munitions were primarily 'graphite". They coated the electrical wires in carbon coated fine wire, which would short out the grid. But once those little wires were removed (a pain in the ass to be sure, but readily doable) power would resume. Reportedly power was restored within a few days of the last missiles launch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite_bomb

By comparison, Russia is blowing up / destroying large power transformers. These often cannot be repaired, and may take months to years to replace. If enough of them are destroyed, the difficulty in souring new transformers from limited global supply (these are parts designed to last 50+ years) makes it effectively a civilization ender comparable to a EMP attack or giant solar flare. 

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/04/f15/LPTStudyUpdate-040914.pdf

If Russia succeeds in its current course, Ukraine could be without power for years, effectively killing its ability to function as a industrial civilization.

A fate that did not befall Iraq or Serbia/Yugoslavia. 

  • Edited 30 November 2022 13:19  by  gatnerd
mpopenker

From: mpopenker

30-Nov

Did Serbs fire any missiles on Washington, Berlin or London?

mpopenker

From: mpopenker

30-Nov

gatnerd said:

the electric grid was temporarily disrupted

By Philip Bennett and Steve Coll
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, May 25, 1999; Page A1

BELGRADE, May 24 – NATO airstrikes on Yugoslavia's power grid left millions of people without electricity or water service today, bringing the war over Kosovo more directly into the lives of civilians across the country.

Three consecutive nights of air attacks caused extensive blackouts in Belgrade, Novi Sad, and Nis, the three largest cities in Serbia, Yugoslavia's dominant republic. In contrast with previous attacks on the power supply – in which allied warplanes triggered temporary outages by dropping carbon-fiber filaments that shorted out electrical lines – NATO forces this time struck at Serbia's five major power-transmission stations with high-explosive munitions, causing damage that could take weeks to repair.

Officials at the Pentagon and at NATO headquarters in Belgium said allied jets deliberately attacked the power grid, aiming to shut it down more completely and for longer periods than at any time previously in the two-month-old air campaign. U.S. officials estimated the attacks had shut off power to about 80 percent of Serbia.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/balkans/stories/belgrade052599.htm

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

30-Nov

Maybe , although if i remember correctly primary targets in Ukraine grid are quite specific 330 Kilovolt transformer stations,powerplants came after that, but the principle is the same after pressure on the military failed (altough unlike in Serbia no one tried taking out the political elite at any time), pressure was applied on civilian populace so that it in turn pressures elites and the military , with similar goals to what Russians seem to want to achieve now. . Nothing new nothing unprecedented ,its just reported differently as it's not us doing it this time.

I would also think the Russians could get the Ukrainian grid back online pretty fast through existing Russian and Belarusian grids if and when they wanted.

Look don't get me wrong i am fully aware Russian invasion of Ukraine is wrong , but it was far from Unprovoked. Red flag was dangled long and frequently enough to get Putin to foolishly step into a trap .

At the same time Russians can easily claim the situation its a reverse Kosovo , this time they are the NATO and Ukraine is Serbia persecuting local minority, occupied territories are Kosovo (by the way we still have soldiers in Kosovo ).

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