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Ukraine weapons thread   General Military Discussion

Started 24/2/22 by gatnerd; 215624 views.
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

30-Nov

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

justification for targeting the electrical grid

The core difference is that in Iraq 1 and Kosovo, the electric grid was temporarily disrupted, as the munitions were primarily 'graphite". They coated the electrical wires in carbon coated fine wire, which would short out the grid. But once those little wires were removed (a pain in the ass to be sure, but readily doable) power would resume. Reportedly power was restored within a few days of the last missiles launch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite_bomb

By comparison, Russia is blowing up / destroying large power transformers. These often cannot be repaired, and may take months to years to replace. If enough of them are destroyed, the difficulty in souring new transformers from limited global supply (these are parts designed to last 50+ years) makes it effectively a civilization ender comparable to a EMP attack or giant solar flare. 

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/04/f15/LPTStudyUpdate-040914.pdf

If Russia succeeds in its current course, Ukraine could be without power for years, effectively killing its ability to function as a industrial civilization.

A fate that did not befall Iraq or Serbia/Yugoslavia. 

  • Edited 30 November 2022 13:19  by  gatnerd
mpopenker

From: mpopenker

30-Nov

Did Serbs fire any missiles on Washington, Berlin or London?

mpopenker

From: mpopenker

30-Nov

gatnerd said:

the electric grid was temporarily disrupted

By Philip Bennett and Steve Coll
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, May 25, 1999; Page A1

BELGRADE, May 24 – NATO airstrikes on Yugoslavia's power grid left millions of people without electricity or water service today, bringing the war over Kosovo more directly into the lives of civilians across the country.

Three consecutive nights of air attacks caused extensive blackouts in Belgrade, Novi Sad, and Nis, the three largest cities in Serbia, Yugoslavia's dominant republic. In contrast with previous attacks on the power supply – in which allied warplanes triggered temporary outages by dropping carbon-fiber filaments that shorted out electrical lines – NATO forces this time struck at Serbia's five major power-transmission stations with high-explosive munitions, causing damage that could take weeks to repair.

Officials at the Pentagon and at NATO headquarters in Belgium said allied jets deliberately attacked the power grid, aiming to shut it down more completely and for longer periods than at any time previously in the two-month-old air campaign. U.S. officials estimated the attacks had shut off power to about 80 percent of Serbia.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/balkans/stories/belgrade052599.htm

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

30-Nov

Maybe , although if i remember correctly primary targets in Ukraine grid are quite specific 330 Kilovolt transformer stations,powerplants came after that, but the principle is the same after pressure on the military failed (altough unlike in Serbia no one tried taking out the political elite at any time), pressure was applied on civilian populace so that it in turn pressures elites and the military , with similar goals to what Russians seem to want to achieve now. . Nothing new nothing unprecedented ,its just reported differently as it's not us doing it this time.

I would also think the Russians could get the Ukrainian grid back online pretty fast through existing Russian and Belarusian grids if and when they wanted.

Look don't get me wrong i am fully aware Russian invasion of Ukraine is wrong , but it was far from Unprovoked. Red flag was dangled long and frequently enough to get Putin to foolishly step into a trap .

At the same time Russians can easily claim the situation its a reverse Kosovo , this time they are the NATO and Ukraine is Serbia persecuting local minority, occupied territories are Kosovo (by the way we still have soldiers in Kosovo ).

JPeelen

From: JPeelen

30-Nov

No, the Serbs just did a little mass murdering of their neighbours and the goal was to stop them from continuing.  

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

30-Nov

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

but it was far from Unprovoked.

By what?

The Ukrainian people wanting a free and independent state? Wanting to make their own decisions?
There was no provocation that would justify a military reaction. Not by a long shot. No force build up, no threat of invasion, no incursion, no genocide, no territorial claims. Nothing.
The claims all have been made by Russia and when they had not been met they used this as excuse to first start an incursion, followed by a clandestine invasion and finally followed by an open invasion. All of this has been completly unprovoked and without any justification.

BTW.: What had happened earlier in history is irrelevant. If you do wrong, you do wrong. End of story. If somebody else did wrong as well, currently or in the past is no justification and no excuse. Its really the same as anywhere else. Because somebody somewhere stole from someone, this is no justfication for and doesn't give the right to steal to a third persone. The very moment somebody uses past wrongdoing by whomever as justification for his own actions this is a very obvious sign that he is in the wrong himself. Actually by referencing past wrongs its also obvious that the person in question knows he is wrong. There is no sugarcoating it or dancing around it.
In addition if the majority or allmost all the people you meet say you are wrong but you think they all are you really should take a step back and think it over. There is allways one and only one wrong way driver.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

30-Nov

JPeelen said:

No, the Serbs just did a little mass murdering of their neighbours and the goal was to stop them from continuing.  

Exactly.
Its amazing how quickly people forget about genocide ,ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity if it doesn't fit to their current argument.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

30-Nov

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

Look don't get me wrong i am fully aware Russian invasion of Ukraine is wrong , but it was far from Unprovoked. Red flag was dangled long and frequently enough to get Putin to foolishly step into a trap . At the same time Russians can easily claim the situation its a reverse Kosovo , this time they are the NATO and Ukraine is Serbia persecuting local minority, occupied territories are Kosovo (by the way we still have soldiers in Kosovo )

So rather then being an expansionist war of conquest, you subscribe to the view that this is what - a brutal and incompetent Cosplay of the NATO Kosovo intervention, thats actually a trap set by master strategist Joe Biden?

...

Honestly I'd have a lot more respect for Russias position if instead of these absurd mental gymnastics and whataboutisms, they just came out and said "fuck these hohols, we want their territory." 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

30-Nov

Excellent in depth analysis; I'm still reading through it.

https://static.rusi.org/359-SR-Ukraine-Preliminary-Lessons-Feb-July-2022-web-final.pdf

Article in The Economist summarising some of the papers findings:

https://archive.ph/reVFU

mpopenker

From: mpopenker

1-Dec

Mass murdering was quite mutual, if I remember correctly. "From 1 January 1998 to 10 June 1999 the KLA killed 988 people and kidnapped 287; in the period from 10 June 1999 to 11 November 2001, when NATO took control in Kosovo, 847 were reported to have been killed and 1,154 kidnapped."

it was just NATO preferred to take sides

as for the Donbass, the Ukraine began indiscriminately killing the "separatists" by shelling and bombing cities and villages from the day they decided to separate from that fine, democratic and absolutely not corrupted state

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