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Tracks vs Wheels   General Army topics

Started 26/5/22 by graylion; 21062 views.
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27/5/22

stancrist said:

The IFV is an improved infantry transporter.

No its not. The IFV is a specialised vehicle to supplement the tank.
Why do you think mech inf is part of the armored corps and not the infantry? Because they are no infantry they are armor with some people that dismount to fight if required. The IFV took over most roles of the light tank. It has serious armament including FCS and all that is needed because its there to fight. Its not a carrier. Its a light tank with carrying capacity.

An improved APC would not have required a new name. The name APC is still used for improved vehicles which have little to do with the first ones that appeared.

stancrist

From: stancrist

27/5/22

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: Indeed, since an APC typically weighs significantly less, it can have better mobility.

Tactical mobility not technical. To have tactical mobility compared to a tank you adequate protection. A light weight APC lacks protection and thus its tactical mobility is significantly less compared to its technical mobility.

Aside from the fact that I've never seen "tactical mobility" defined in such a way, I never said anything about a "light weight" APC.

I'm talking about OTBE.  An APC (because it lacks a turret) will weigh less than an IFV, when both have the same armor protection.

For instance, remove the turret from a Bradley IFV and turn it into an APC.  It will be lighter, faster, but the same armor protection.

stancrist

From: stancrist

27/5/22

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: The IFV is an improved infantry transporter.

No its not. The IFV is a specialised vehicle to supplement the tank.

LOL.  "Not an infantry transporter."  LOL.

schnuersi said:

Why do you think mech inf is part of the armored corps and not the infantry? Because they are no infantry...

Mechanized infantry are not infantry?  ROFL.

DavidPawley

From: DavidPawley

27/5/22

Boxer CRV on left, ASLAV type 2 (Australian spec LAV25) on right.

Both cavalry reconnaissance vehicles, neither IFV. Our new IFV will be either Lynx with the same Lance turret as the CRV, or AS21 Redback.

In reply toRe: msg 41
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27/5/22

I had always gone with this basic distinction:

IFV: Optimized for fighting other vehicles; superior gun and armor to the APC, optimized for vehicle on vehicle combat

APC: Optimized for transporting infantry; armor optimized for infantry protection and gun designed for infantry support

stancrist

From: stancrist

28/5/22

First, "optimized for fighting other vehicles" and "optimized for vehicle on vehicle combat" are redundant.

Second, the IFV is not optimized for fighting other vehicles.  Tanks are optimized for fighting other vehicles. 

APC:  Designed for transporting infantry; armor protection against small arms fire and artillery fragments; armament adequate for infantry support.

IFV:  Designed for transporting infantry; armor protection greater than that of the APC; armament more capable and flexible than that of the APC.

WarthogARJ

From: WarthogARJ

28/5/22

RovingPedant said:

schnuersi said... So far no major nation has adopted wheeled IFVs.

Hi,

Just joined the forum, interesting discussions,

As far as "no major nation adopting wheeled IFV's", one needs to consider South Africa, in the Bush Wars against Angola (and the Cubans).

In terms of numbers of tanks/AFV's involved, the battles got pretty big.

And carried on for long periods.

And it used, and uses, a LOT of wheeled vehicles quite successfully.

From IFV's to SPG's.

One point is the terrain is not like Western Europe: not so much mud or swamps to go though.

There's a good RAND study directed towards Australia's latest decision to go wheeled or tracked for its new IFV's (it went tracked as you know).

http://chrome-extension://ieepebpjnkhaiioojkepfniodjmjjihl/data/pdf.js/web/viewer.html?

file=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rand.org%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Frand%2Fpubs%2Fresearch_reports%2FRR1800%2FRR1834%2FRAND_RR1834.pdf

I think there is not a SINGLE correct answer to the choice, I think it's best to have BOTH, and use the variant that suits the case at hand the best.

Sure, if you are in Ukraine in late winter/early spring, you need to deal with the mud.

And tracks are the best for that.

But how often does THAT arise with most armed forces of big countries?

Most times it's little bush wars, and COIN you're dealing with.

Where the right wheeled vehicle can be the better option.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

28/5/22

Welcome to the forum.

In reply toRe: msg 44
WarthogARJ

From: WarthogARJ

28/5/22

In terms of can one design a wheeled vehicle to handle soft ground (mud, muskeg, swamp etc) as well, or better than a tracked vehicle, that RAND report I just posted the link to makes some interesting points:

- You want BIG tires to optimise performance (page 118) (I've read somewhere, maybe in this report, but perhaps elsewhere, that there's in effect a max size in tire you can select in terms of various factors like mounting it on the vehicle, and making it, and the tires the USMC are using are close to that max size)

- Due to the max size of tires you can effectively use on a wheeled IFV, you tend to max out at +/- 35 tons (absolute limit 40 tons)  if you want to get good mud mobility, so if you need lots of armour and size for troops, this tends to constrain your choices (page 141 and after)

WarthogARJ

From: WarthogARJ

28/5/22

Thanks.

I was just going to say "Hi", but then I saw this discussion, and it's something I'm quite interested in: mobility.

There's a Canadian researcher who has written a LOT (as in over a dozen peer-reviewed papers and at least two text books) on off-road mobility: J.Y. Wong.

And he's got some computer software that can model how a given tracked system behaves on various types of surfaces.

He's even got screen shots of it, and says how easy it is to use.

I'd love to try it, but so far it seems elusive to actually get a copy of it!

Lots of mentions of it but nothing that says where you can get access to it.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0954407018765504

This is one of his recent ones, but he's been at for DECADES.

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