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US Army selects PCP for polymer 7.62x51   Ammunition <20mm

Started 14-Jun by gatnerd; 1554 views.
stancrist

From: stancrist

18-Jun

nincomp said:

There is no technical reason why a lower-powered GP round could not be developed for door-kickers.

That's not the issue.  The question is, does the Army have any plan to develop a reduced-power GP load?

The only info I recall seeing is that -- of the planned loads -- there is only one GP load, and it is full power.

nincomp said:

There is more than one type of reduced range ammo.

Yes, but as with the GP, there has been mention of only one reduced-range load currently being planned.

Since all I've seen from the Army is that it's for training, I'm skeptical that it will be used as combat ammo.

EmericD

From: EmericD

18-Jun

stancrist said:

Is there a sound, logical basis for that speculation, or is it just random internet guys saying, "Hey, why not use the reduced-range training ammo for combat?" It seems to me the Army would want to use ammo with the GP bullet for combat, not a special projectile designed to limit maximum range for target practice.

The 135 gr FMJ "training / practice" round proposed by SIG and used in all the recent videos posted on Youtube is not "reduced range" in the sense you're pointing out.

It's a "reduced range" ammo versus the full power GP round.

  • Edited 18 June 2022 10:00  by  EmericD
stancrist

From: stancrist

18-Jun

EmericD said:

The 135 gr FMJ "training / practice" round proposed by SIG and used in all the recent videos posted on Youtube is not "reduced range" in the sense you're pointing out. It's a "reduced range" ammo versus the full power GP round.

Thanks, Emeric.  If that is conventional lead-core FMJ, it seems unlikely to be adopted by the Army for training/practice use. 

Environmental regulations to reduce lead pollution on firing ranges are what led to development of (lead-free) EPR bullets.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

18-Jun

Also, lighter rifle ammo, more 40mm, Goose, or MG ammo can be carried.

stancrist

From: stancrist

18-Jun

stancrist said:

       nincomp said: There is more than one type of reduced range ammo.

Yes, but as with the GP, there has been mention of only one reduced-range load currently being planned.

Since all I've seen from the Army is that it's for training, I'm skeptical that it will be used as combat ammo.

In regard to my second sentence above, I find that I conflated two different subjects:

- 7.62mm Reduced Range Training Ammunition

- 6.8mm Reduced Range Ammunition (see below)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

From Msg 2699

Guardsman26 said:

Winchester has announced that there will be five core NGSW ammunition loadings.

* Special Purpose (SP) - armour piecing round

* General Purpose (GP) - less powerful than SP round 

* Reduced Range (RR) - even less powerful round designed for CQB / Urban operations

* Tracer (T) - based on GP round ballistics

* Blank (B)

EmericD

From: EmericD

18-Jun

stancrist said:

Thanks, Emeric.  If that is conventional lead-core FMJ, it seems unlikely to be adopted by the Army for training/practice use. 

I would say the opposite.

Remember that the M855A1 was banned for indoor training due to its "semi-AP" capability, and for outdoor training due to the wider ricochet fan vs. the M855...

The "reduced power" 6.8x51 mm is ballistically very close to the M118LR (same BC, same MV, same lead core), so at least it could be used on the same training range.

stancrist

From: stancrist

18-Jun

EmericD said:

Remember that the M855A1 was banned for indoor training due to its "semi-AP" capability, and for outdoor training due to the wider ricochet fan vs. the M855...

Heh, heh.  I can't remember something that I never knew.  This is the first I've heard of EPR ammo being banned from Army ranges.

If it is now permissible to use lead-core FMJ for training and practice, of course that puts a completely different light on the subject.

nincomp

From: nincomp

18-Jun

You found the post I had been looking for.  The basic issue is that the Army was hoping for a wonderweapon system and had to settle for reality.  The relatively high ammo weight was certainly a disappointment.  Since it now appears that the 7.62x51 PCP polymer ammo was waiting in the wings, the NGSW winner would actually be heavier that the 7.62 option that was already considered more than adequate for CQB/Urban Operations.  Without a lighter recoiling, lighter weight cartridge, the new 6.8x51 would appear to be a step backwards in many applications.

I found the following comment about recoil of the SIG XM5 on the Soldier Systems Daily site :"I’ve fired that gun quite a few times, on both semi and full auto. It won’t knock you down, but the recoil impulse is significant and it’s heavy for those used to an M4. A 100 lbs kid will have a tough time with it." (https://soldiersystems.net/2022/04/19/us-army-selects-sig-sauer-for-next-generation-squad-weapons-program/#comments)

Part of the confusion is over terminology and that is why I mentioned that there was more than one type of reduced-range ammo.  It would make sense that a REDUCED POWER combat round would still use some type of EPR Ammo to retain "barrier blind" characteristics.  Those same characteristics makes it more dangerous on the practice range, though, so I do not know if this lower power combat cartridge would also be used as the training round instead of something like the RRTA (Reduced Range Training Ammunition) in the NDIA presentation you cited. 

FWIW, it did not seem that the author nor most of the commenters of the article you cited about  a special projectile designed to limit maximum range for target practice understood how it worked.  The purpose of the fins is to slow bullet rotation rather than simply add drag.  There would be some advantages to something like a solid copper-alloy RRTA round, but logistics and possible confusion of adding another "reduced" cartridge to the 6.8 inventory system might prevent it from being used.

edited to add:  possibly a frangible RRTA would be preferred

  • Edited 19 June 2022 7:55  by  nincomp
In reply toRe: msg 18
nincomp

From: nincomp

19-Jun

Examples of RRTA ammo and bullets (I tried to post this yesterday but it something went wrong)

stancrist

From: stancrist

19-Jun

nincomp said:

It would make sense that a REDUCED POWER combat round would still use some type of EPR Ammo to retain "barrier blind" characteristics.  Those same characteristics makes it more dangerous on the practice range, though, so I do not know if this lower power combat cartridge would also be used as the training round...

According to Nick, there is only one Reduced Range loading currently planned.  If that is correct, it would seem necessary that it have a bullet which is usable for training and practice,

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